Mistakes, Lessons, and the Mud: What 250 Interviews Taught Us with Rene Duron

The Muddy Start Metaphor

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And it was a pipe full of mud. And uh at the end was a valve, uh, like a like a ball valve. And the idea was you t you open the valve and the the there's clean water behind all the mud, but the mud has to just come out first. And that that that's my feedback I would give to somebody trying to start this. Like just let it be muddy at first, and the clean stuff is gonna come afterwards, but you gotta let you gotta flush out that mud and mug there first.

Celebrating 250 Episodes Together

SPEAKER_02 0:36

All right, LM family. This is a very, very special occasion. Never in my life did I think we would be here. And ultra shout out to Miss Aaron, the wizard behind all the depth builder learnings and missteps things for pointing out that this is our 250th episode. And I've got a super ultra special guest. Some of you guys that were here from the very, very beginning are gonna recognize his goofy face. Um, he is the former co-host, he is our current editor, he is my hero, my baby baby brother, Renee. Uh, what's going on, Renee? What up, what up, what up? Good morning. All right, well, we're gonna we're gonna get into or do a little bit of reminiscence, a little reflection, and maybe some future casting. And so before we get going, if you don't know, this isn't the first learnins and missteps episode. This is the 250th. I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and me and Renee are about to go down memory lane. So here we go. So, Renee, it's six o'clock in the morning on a Sunday. Why are we recording so early on a Sunday?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Excellent question. So I came over here to try to mitigate the curveballs. I'm over here at my um my office in at San Antonio Water System. So I got four raptors at home. That's what we call the raptors. I got uh my my kids, they're all under nine years old, right? So I'm over there yapping my my gums. I don't want to wake them up and then they're gonna be on the interview too. I came over here to get some privacy.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

That's all okay. So, how many raptors did you have when we first recorded?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Oh, that's a good question. I think uh I think two. I think it was just Zach and Zach and Julia.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yeah, yeah. Man, time has flown by. Um, so when we first started the podcast,

The Messy Early Days Of Recording

SPEAKER_02 2:47

it's me and you, you were the co-hosts, we were having the conversations. If you can think all the way back, like do you remember what went through your mind when I said, hey man, I want to start a podcast. Let's let's do it. This you'll be the co-host. You remember what like thoughts came through your head?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah, I think uh first the thing that jumps up to me quick is um I was like listening to the the Jocko podcast a lot at that time. So I was thinking this was gonna be like somewhat of a a Jocko and Echo Charles situation. I was gonna be Jocko, your Echo Charles. And uh I was like, I I wasn't surprised. I I wasn't surprised that you you would do something like this at all. I was surprised that you would have me be a part of it like that in such a big role. Um, but yeah, that's kind of my initial thoughts when you brought it.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Yeah, yeah, no, it was uh I mean it was you know, it was a random idea. Uh and I remember I don't know if you remember the one conversation we had. Like we it was jacked up. Like we didn't, we didn't have video, we were using some kind of weird lapel mics. We had one episode conversation that I didn't record, like I didn't hit the record button. It was messy. You remember how messy it was?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yeah, I remember being at your house, like on the floor, like laying down with my laptop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Oh man. So were there any like what were you? I want to talk about like your expectations and disappointments from from back then. Like I think about you know, the first month or whatever it was. I mean, you already talked about you know being Jocko and and Echo, um, but it's an exciting thing, but it's also it's there's a reality part to it. So what were some of your expectations or hopes when we started doing the thing?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Um, I guess the I didn't really have any expectations, to be honest with you. Uh my hopes were we're gonna have good content that we can uh you know keep it going and keep my hopes were that we're gonna keep it new and exciting every single time with like a limitless, you know, content machine, like make it into a limitless content machine. Um that was the hope. Um disappointment, I guess. I was I I don't know, I wouldn't even say I would disappoint because I expected it. I guess my expectation was I did expect it to be messy, because it's new, right? You just you're just starting out of nowhere. It's not like we had like a consultant with us or a professional production agency behind us. So I was expecting it to be messy and raw, and we're just gonna learn as we go. Um, disappointment. I guess I was dis I if there's any disappointment, I was just disappointed in myself. Is it back then like hindsight? I think about it sometimes, and hindsight. Uh I feel like I got in my head a lot. And man, when what was how many years ago was that when you first started?

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Like dude, it was like six years ago.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Six years ago, dang.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah, bro. It's been like five or six years.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

I can yeah, I didn't I had I didn't even realize it's been that long. That's crazy. I didn't realize it's been that long. Uh I I thought it was like three years ago. Oh no, yeah, but yeah, I feel like I I just got I was like way in my head too much about it. I I had way too much expectations myself, I think. Um now I I don't I don't have any problems with it now.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

So when you say you got in your head too much, like think about, I mean, now podcasting it's way easier, right? Like back then we were, I mean, it wasn't like super difficult when we started, but there's so many like super easy editing uh things and live streaming, like there's a lot of outlets and ways to do it. But I know a bunch of people that are like just now starting a podcast or thinking about it. And so, like you said, you got in your head, what are some pointers that you would give somebody that's like curious about, I think I want to do this

Advice For New Podcasters

SPEAKER_02 6:58

thing? Like, what should they expect? What advice do you have for them?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, um, I drew this picture on my whiteboard um in my office uh a while ago, and I felt like I was doing some reflecting and I was like, man, like I was reflecting on some conversations and relationships that I built that I never thought I would ever have. And I was reflecting on that, like, okay, it's possible for me to create new relationships, deep ones, with people that are like way above my pay grade or way above my perceived like like this person has no business talking to me, like that kind of thing. But I still develop that relationship and we have really deep conversations, right? So um I was reflecting on that, and then I was reflecting on some other relationships or other uh opportunities that I I guess I counted myself out of. Um I was thinking about that, and I drew this picture, and it was a pipe, and it was a pipe full of mud, and uh at the end was a valve, uh like a like a ball valve. And the idea was you you open the valve, and the the there's clean water behind all the mud, but the mud has to just come out first. And that yeah, that's my feedback I would give to somebody trying to start this. Like just let it be muddy at first, and the clean stuff is gonna come afterwards, but you gotta let you gotta flush out that mud and mood there first.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

I like that. Flush out the mud. I mean, I'm looking at the at the app thing on my phone. We actually released Oh, this is crazy. We released episode zero, the very first episode on September 22nd. So almost exactly or exact exactly a year, six years and a week from the first episode that we released, um, way, way back when. And and yeah, there was an act, and folks, if y'all go back and listen to it, the audio was jacked, like it was it was like screw it, man, let's let's let it ride, let's see how it goes. Um, I remembered back then that you I wanted to like do video right out of the gate, and you're like, no, no, no, no. Like you helped me, and I said it in the intro, right? You're my hero, you've been my hero for a long, long time, but you helped me like pump my brakes on a lot of things, which was I need that, right? Because you know me, I just go and do shit all the time. I like the muddy, it don't bother me at all. Problem is um I don't always wait for it to get clear. Just keep creating more mud. Now you mentioned that as a result of well, I don't know. I I want to be get clear. You mentioned real relationships and connections with people that that you consider like are beyond your reach. Was that a result of the podcast? Or what's the relationship between those connections of people that you've uh built relationships around that being uh involved in the podcast?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yeah, I don't I wouldn't say it was a result of the podcast. I feel like the podcast in relation to that, what I said, maybe the podcast was like um maybe like an ice bath where you get into it, right? And it's like, oh my gosh, it's so crazy and uncomfortable, and it's shock, it's like a shock to your system. It's like a wake-up call. I feel like the podcast was like the the real shaking that, hey, you got some reflecting to do on why this is so uncomfortable for you. I think the relationship stuff happened. I didn't, like I said, I didn't even realize it's been six years, but from episode zero, six years in the making, I've been getting more cold plunges, and now it's not it's not that deep anymore, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

I love that. I love you know, back when you were the co-host, I loved it because you know, you're my brother. Well, and I could see you gaining confidence and the the way you asked questions, they were like just the most vulnerable, real questions. I know the guests loved it. Like, oh man, he has such good questions. Um, but did it feel like you were asking, like, I'm gonna ask the awesomest question right now. What did that feel like back then?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

No, man, it wasn't at all. Uh, some of it was like a lot of it, if not all of it, was the the motivation behind my questions was I really genuinely wanted to know because I was going through it, or or uh maybe I knew somebody who would benefit from this question or myself, right? Um, and then the rest of it was like, hey, I I hadn't spoken in the past 20 minutes of the interview. Let me get some air time.

Shout-Outs And Why Feedback Matters

SPEAKER_02 11:56

I want to do the LM Family Member shout-out, which I don't think was a part of the deal when we first started the podcast. Uh, but this one goes out to Miss Melissa McKenzie. Melissa made this awesome post and she said, Messi Hernandez, thank you for being a leader, teacher, and source of motivation, inspiration throughout my journey. You are welcome and thank you for putting all the work and effort to overcome the friction and still be a positive influence out there in the field. Uh, and folks, y'all already know I love attention. I like to know that somebody's listening. I mean, we've done 20 of these, so of course I got some gas, and that comes from your comments, your reviews, your shares, and reposts. Uh, and so when you do make a comment or leave a review, uh, it gives me the opportunity and excuse to shout you out in a future episode. That's hilarious, man. Oh, yeah. It was, it was a for me, it was just a good time to be doing something together. Uh, and in my wish of wishes, it was that it would instill some kind of confidence and broaden your spectrum uh a little bit. And so you were the I don't even remember how long you were co-hosting, and then you're like, dude, I can't do this anymore. Was that because like you're sick and tired of it? What was the reason behind you being away from co-hosting?

Stepping Back Without Quitting

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah, it was just priorities. I I had like a I only had two raptors back then, and with so I gained another two rafters.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

You know, I and then uh at that time I was like heavily involved in my church. I started to take on more responsibility in the ministry, I started leading a Bible study. Uh sometimes I was even on the pulpit on Sundays, and then I had my my Zoe was born, my wife was pregnant. It was just like I started taking on more spinning plates, and it it started to turn into on a like Saturday mornings were usually our thing. It was like, oh, it's like it was really it started to be pretty overwhelming to like give because again, it was still at that time speaking in this manner was very uncomfortable for me. So it's like I use a lot of my I don't know, bandwidth, I guess. Um right there at the Saturday, and then like I still gotta deal with everything else. And it was uh I I just I was like, something's gotta give. So I just made that choice to say I gotta step back from this. I'll still be uh editing behind the scenes, but I just made the choice to remove that spinning plate.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Yeah, yeah, I think it was the right to say again, like you know, folks out there, if y'all don't know, when I say Renee is my hero, it's because he he he's accomplished things that I could never accomplish. Very practical, uh, very considerate of other human beings, and him make you making the decision, man, to like say, hey dude, I gotta stop this because I got the kids, I got life, I got all the things, is is like a skill I I don't have. It though like it was the best decision. And so now you know it was six years ago. What are some things that you discovered about yourself or that you've learned as a result of being because after that you've been behind the scenes. Hell, Ad, I, your wife, amazing wife, um, she was a part of doing the clipping and producing like little micro videos way back, you know, a few years back. What have you, and you so you've been a part of this, whether you're on the screen or not, the whole time. What are some of the lessons you learned or things that you've learned about yourself as a result of being involved in the manners that you have been?

Burnout, Values, And Not Chasing Money

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Ooh, that's an excellent question. I'll start with this. Um, I think I've I've learned that I don't think I'm driven by money any anymore. Like uh I I think, for example, because within that six years, I was like going hot and heavy with the podcasting, right? I was even considering trying to make it a full-time gig. And there was a at one point, I was juggling five different podcasts and still have the full-time job, and still was involved in the ministry, still had the four raptors with a wife, and I was like, I was making the most money I had ever made in my life. Um, but man, I was smoked. I was really smoked and drained, and it was like, okay, I agree. Like, you know, we can eat Panda Express every day now, and and and it don't hurt me or something. But but like, man, I'm smoked. I'm drained, and um I'm not as cool to be around anymore because I'm just constantly spread thin. Um so I really I think I realized uh what uh I guess what my true values were and what really what really drives me. Uh and it wasn't, it's not the dollar amount. So that's that's one thing I think I I really learned from um you know being involved in this manner.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

Yeah, yeah. And folks, just for clarification, when he says five podcasts, you were doing the editing and post-production for five different podcasts for other people out there that have podcasts as well. That's right. Uh and still because you owe me your life, I think this is what I said you're still doing that for, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

That's correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

So the editing and all the little short clips, Renee is guilty or responsible for most of those. So if you don't like them, now you know who to blame. I think you do a fantastic job. And I know how much time it takes. So I'm I'm I'm glad that you're doing that part because they're powerful, they're impactful. I get a lot of feedback about the clips and the content that's in them and stuff. And people are like, Man, who does your style? Like, I can't tell you because he's not taking on any more clients, which is awesome. You uh you kind of alluded earlier to that speaking was like you were uncomfortable speaking, and and now you you talk pretty good, and I know you've connected with a lot of people out there in through the internet or whatever. What was that growth three like for you in terms of getting comfortable speaking and reaching out and connecting to other people that are maybe like you said, beyond your reach, but you still connected with

Career Growth Through Uncomfortable Connection

SPEAKER_02 18:23

them?

SPEAKER_01 18:23

I guess I'll take it back to a career, uh my career path. So within the six years I've moved departments, I've been promoted what, like four or five times.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

So a bunch of times. A bunch of times.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

So uh, you know, it's it's it's a no-brainer. Every time you get promoted, you're you're surrounded by different people, the environment usually changes, you know, your org, your organizational chart changes, etc. Well, one of those moves took me out of the field and into a headquarters office. And I was like, whoa, uh, I was way out of my comfort zone because I had only ever been in the field doing field operation stuff, like being a wrench turner or or some kind of field coordinator of some sort. I never sat in the office all day unless I was in trouble. So now I'm in headquarters. And I think that's the the real deep ice plunge for me when I made that move over there, is because all of a sudden, I almost had to make these connections in order to be successful or really serve the really, it turned out to be I had to make those connections in order to truly serve the people on my new team because that job that I took was titled construction specialist, and I did a lot of data, I gathered a lot of data insights to track a number of things, right? And if I wanted, I knew I wanted that data to mean something and not just to be like numbers that people freak out about. Well, I noticed people were freaking out about the numbers. That's the first thing. And I was like, wait, there's actually an explanation for this. It's not the house is not on fire. There's a reasonable explanation for this. But to find out what that was, I had to connect with the people doing the work. And a lot of those people were engineers, um, inspector engineers, managers, directors, project controls people, people in suits and ties. I was having conversations with the VP, and it was super, super uncomfortable at first, but I knew it was gonna be critical if I wanted to make an impact here in a meaningful way. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

I sh I love that, man. You're doing good, dude. Doing real good. Now, I don't even know how many guests or interviews we've had, but it's more than zero and a little less than 250, because you know there was a phase where I would do we would split, like we do one interview, and then I would split it into two different episodes. And now we do the interviews, and every so often I'll have a solo cast where it's just me flapping my gums. But there's been a lot of freaking guests, and you've been able to hear whether you like it or not, because you're the editor, like hear all of their stories, all of their wisdom and knowledge.

Lessons From Hundreds Of Guest Stories

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Have you picked up any nuggets as a result of like being a part of the podcast from our guests?

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Oh, yeah, 100%. Uh, the biggest, most valuable nugget to me is I guess I would have say like i I'm not alone. That's not the word I'm looking for. Uh I I maybe, maybe I feel connected to your your guests uh in a in a way that I didn't see coming. And I feel connected to To them in this manner that they're not nobody really had it figured out. It seems like that's a consistent theme that nobody had like this black and white roadmap, or even the folks that did have this black and white roadmap, they went off the rails and and they're fine. They're fine. And actually, they're uh grateful that they went off the rails because it ended up taking them to a better place. So I think that's one nugget because I I used to feel a lot of pressure and like, hey, I I need to know what I'm gonna do in the next five, 10, 20 years. And I have to be like super, I guess I think that's still important to have like uh a vision of where you want to be in the next five, 10 years, but that vision doesn't have to be a title. So you don't, I don't have to say, like, I want to be a manager in five years at this company. And if I didn't make that, oh, I'm I'm cooked, I'm not, I'm, you know, whatever. I think better is thinking about the situations or the relationships you want to be in in the next five years, or the rooms you want to sit in in the next five years, or the kind of impact you want to have in the next five years rather than titles or like degrees or or licenses or whatever. If that's for and then if that's for you, that's for you, but that doesn't have to be for me. I don't I don't have to have a title in my five, 10, 20 year plan. I it could be other things. Uh that's the biggest nugget for me.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Yeah. Are there any other ones that again from like common themes that have bubbled up from all the conversations that you've been listening to for free on the back actually to listen to you paying me to listen to it?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

So that that one's big. I think um I I like I like the another common theme is like a lot of your guests, they care for people, and sometimes that's not been received by their company, and they moved and they're fine. And I I that's a common theme, and another common theme is like they're I'm gonna call them unicorns in their spaces. So it's like they don't seem to always fit the mold, and and that's fine. That's a nugget for me, because I usually don't hit the mold either. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

No, I love that because it's important, right? Is for whatever reason, the majority of us have this idea that we gotta fit a specific mold and have you know a sp specific pedigree, or else the world ends. And I the truth is opposite of that. Like, you how do you want to serve? How do you want to impact? Um, you don't always have to conform. And guess what? If if it's real hard wherever you're at, maybe you're at the wrong place. You can move and and continue creating your thing. Now, you mentioned the raptors, which folks, if y'all don't know what the raptors are, those are my my nieces and my nephew, the four babies that you have, and your amazing wife, Areli. Like, what does Areli say about the time you spend editing and doing the podcasting? Like, is do I owe her? Is she mad at me? Like, what's the deal for real?

SPEAKER_01 25:18

She's mad at you that you don't instantly pay me. What's that? The moment I press done. Nah, um it just depends what time of day and how proactive I am, right? Because like it's like if I'm doing an editing right before we we're gonna go have dinner or something, that's that's not good. But uh that's a good idea. That's not even you. That's not me. No, but uh no, she she's grateful and she's she definitely sees the growth. And and it's like a it's there's a lot of content we talk about. Um like, man, I really you gotta look at this or come check this out, or uh, hey, he interviewed a mom. What look what she's saying, and uh she she's all about it, she's very supportive of of this, and uh we're we're grateful to be a part of it. And uh, you know, you're buying us a lot of diapers like that, but it's all good.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

That's funny. Well, you know, there is a way to stop needing diapers. Uh I don't know if you know that or not. A breeder's gotta breed, man. That's freaking hilarious. I love it, man. Um, so six years, I made a switch.

Broadening Beyond The Jobsite

SPEAKER_02 26:32

I don't know if you if some people noticed it, some most people didn't. But originally I was exclusively interviewing people that had a lot of time in the field doing actual the like the building work of construction, not the managing. And then I don't know, it was about maybe two years ago, maybe a little longer, where I made a switch. Did you notice the switch? Was it is it obvious to you? Does it stand out?

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yeah, um, it was pretty obvious to me. It's well, at least it stood out because um yeah, like you it sound it looks like you kind of zoomed out some like you were at first you were like interviewing like the wrench turners or like the the front line leaders in the construction space, and then it kind of zoomed out and zoomed out, and now it's it's I see like a lot of people that if you're connected to the construction space at all, it it seems like um they get a they get a seat on your show.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 27:35

I think that's cool because I think it's pretty cool because it it's kind of like that's life, like we're all connected in some ways. Like I I don't I don't know where I heard it from, but I heard it, I think I heard on the radio that everyone in Hollywood is connected to Kevin Bacon it by six people. Yeah, six degrees of separation of separation, that's right. And it's kind of like that, like everyone's connected to the construction space by six degrees of separation. And I think you you capture those people all with all degrees, uh, and and those are the people you talk up talk to. So I noticed that shift. Like it's not always just the wrench turners, maybe it's the uh therapist talking to the wrench turner, or you know, an HR professional talking to the person who talks to the wrench turners, or some somehow they're connected, somehow. So yeah, I noticed that change.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, we are. Yeah, I had to make the and I felt it was funny because I what happened was I went through all of my friends, right? Those all of I guess the first two years, like it was easy for me to get somebody to interview because I just call a friend and it's like, hey man, I want to interview. And then I started going, you know, a little their friend. And then I got to a point where I couldn't find like you call wrench term, like people that are acting out there still doing the work, foreman, installer, didn't matter. And I started reaching out on on TikTok, on Instagram, like I really started trying to find more people, and they like it was funny because they would say yes, and then when it came down to recording day, they would flake out for whatever reason. My assessment is that they got nervous about being on camera and you know, whatever. And so it got real hard to find guests, and so I asked some friends, I'm like, hey man, I'm thinking of making a change. I don't want to be a sellout, but I'm really struggling to get guests that are fitting the criteria that I was looking for. And it was interesting because three people were like, Well, Jess, you know, it's interesting. I never really noticed that you were interviewing tradespeople. What I noticed was that what I like is I get to hear about their path, about what they learned and what they did and where they are now and how they got there. Like, that's what I like about the thing. I was like, oh man, well, that makes it easy. Now I can open it up. Like, if that's the thing. And so, like you said, now it's anybody. It just the fact that they're connected to I think for two reasons. The fact that they're connected to construction is one reason is because I'm in construction and all the people I know are in construction. Duh. Right. Um, the second reason is is because construction touches everybody, right? Period. Uh, and so now it's broader. I just want to share the stories of people like you said, there's more than one path to success, and none of them are a straight line. And so anybody, everybody's been through that and knows that. And so that it made it, it's made it way, way easier for me to find victims to interview on the

How A Host Can Ruin A Show

SPEAKER_02 30:42

podcast. But I'm glad it still comes through. And so, how like if I could really screw this up, how do you see me doing that?

SPEAKER_01 30:52

How do you screw it up? Yeah. Uh stop. If you just stop, that screws it up. Um one. Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. Uh I think you can maybe screw it up by yeah, well, I'll I'll go with what I think you do well. I think you do really well uh about letting the people on your show speak, and you really you ask like a lot of open-ended questions and then they tell their story. That I think that's really great because uh I hear some shows and it's it's like the host and what they think, and it's just kind of pumping out their whatever, whatever they believe, and that's it. And the the guest doesn't really get to to shine as much. So I think you could you can screw it up by steamrolling your guests and pumping out your own agenda, but I mean, other than that, I don't the only way I think you can screw it up is by you stop doing it, you just don't do it anymore. I don't I don't get screwed up.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

10-4. Yeah, you know what? It's funny because I it I don't get asked the question as much anymore, but I'll say the first three-ish years, a lot of people like, well, what's the ROI? Like, what do you like are you making any money off of it? And why do you keep doing it if you're you should do this and you should do you should make a 26-minute max episode because like all the you know, like thank you. I appreciate your input, and I'm not gonna do that. Or and I've also had people say, like, man, you need to you need to say more because it's your podcast. I'm like, yeah, but I don't I can make my own I live stream every other freaking Saturday for the past six years. Like, come on, man, I talk enough. I really, really like bring the story of the person I'm interviewing. Like, I mean, totally. The only difference, the only reason it's a podcast is because I'm recording. I just want to have that kind of conversation with the person that's on the call, right? Like, I would have the same conversation with them if I met them in person, uh, because I just want to know about them. And so, like, the idea of, and I've been on podcasts where the host is like, I'm just, I'm they're, I'm just the eye candy, right? They're the ones pushing all their stuff. And I'm like, oh, that sucked. Like, that is not fun at all. And so I don't ever want to do that, but ultimately it's really just, man, I really want to get to know this person and I'm gonna ask questions that I'm curious about that I think are gonna help the listeners, the LM family members out there, uh, which

Why Jesse Keeps Showing Up

SPEAKER_02 33:27

has been fun. And then it's also like, well, when are you going to like stop? And like, what's the signal, Jess, for you to not do this if you're not making money off of it? It just costs you time, it just costs you energy. Like, why do you keep going? So you know me very well. Why do you think I just keep going? Even though it's not making actually it's costing me money because I'm buying your diapers. Why do you think I keep going?

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Uh, I think I think you're pretty, you're very extroverted, and I think um it fuels you. I think you get recharged by it by these connections that you make. Yeah. Uh, and that they're obviously they're very meaningful. You have very conversation. I think you cry a couple of times on the on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

So yeah, I think this is like super special to you. Really, mainly the biggest value I think that keeps you going is like the you get charged. You get recharged. This is recharging for you, I think, uh, to have this human connection with with others, with like very special people.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Well said, man. Yes, yes, it is uh roosting my energy. One, because you know, there's a lot of stinky stuff going on out there, and you know, you can get on the news or get on social media and see all kinds of you know crappy situations. Uh and so when I interview, when I when I get to talk to the guests and hear how they're contributing to the world, to the people around them, gives me hope. Like, okay, there's beautiful, amazing people out there. And also, I get to highlight them. Like so many, this is like my super secret favoritist thing. When I interview somebody and they're like, this is my first podcast ever. I've never done anything like this. Like, to me, that is the ultimate gift. Like, I so, so love that because like I think Neil, yeah, Neil is the last one that she that said that to me. She's like, Jesse, this is the first time I've ever done it. And she did, I mean, she was amazing. She brought the energy, she had real deep insight, she was very courageous, like motivational. And I believe that the effect that has on somebody, like saying it, and then hearing them saying and seeing them saying it, shifts their perspective about themselves. Like they can see themselves in a from a grander perspective, which is actually the perspective the people around them always see them in. And and so for me, it's like a a super weird delusion of grandeur, maybe that I can help highlight all the awesome stuff that they typically won't brag about or put out there into the world and help introduce that level of them to the world. So for like that's that's what gets me excited about it. Like, man, I'm just gonna keep doing it until I get shut down, until I get canceled. Like, I don't see a future of me not doing this. It may look a little different. Um, and actually, I'm I think I'm leading to

The Dragon Scroll And Seeing Yourself

SPEAKER_02 36:27

a question here. Another critique I get is that I haven't changed it much. Like it's just kind of the same over and over and over. Part of that's because I'm lazy. The other part is because I I believe it's working. Uh so that here's the question. What do you think about the fact that it's just kind of been the same format? The editing, it hasn't gotten shinier or glossier or it's like, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Yeah, it's just like one, I think, well, what what's your intent out of this, right? What it's your intent to get shiny and glossy to make a book or you know, be get ads in or whatever. It doesn't sound like that's your intent. So, what what do I need to add all these other things for? That's the first thing. And two, it's like you know it's working because you enjoy doing it and you you created like a model that you can do consistently and it's not like dreadful to you. So that's how you know it's working. And three, that's like uh I think it's a really good recipe you got going on because it's like essentially uh it's what I would do, what you described a little while ago, right now. Uh if I could sum it up, it's like you're showing people the dragon scroll from Kung Fu Panda One. Uh uh because it's like they uh they like you said, everybody sees them like this, but they can't see themselves like that. For the people who haven't seen Kung Fu Panda One, uh that's like one of my favorite movies. It's a it's Poe is the Jack Black Panda, he becomes the dragon warrior on accident, and he's not getting it. Like he he's training under the Furious Five, he's not nailing it by any means, getting his ass kicked every day. And it's all there's all this, there's all this buildup to this showdown between the villain of the movie, and they're like, hey, we need to train you up to be the dragon warrior, because this guy's coming to the village and he's gonna kill everybody if the dragon warrior doesn't stop him. The Furious Five wasn't able to take him out. It's dead, it's your destiny for the Dragon Warrior to take him out. And when you're ready, then I can give you the dragon scroll. You know, he never really was ready, but he's like, you know what, I'm not ready, but I'm here and I'm I'm gonna fight you, villain. And in that process, uh he gets he gets the dragon scroll and he opens it, and it's just like this reflective paper. And he's like, What the hell? Like there wasn't I opened it up, and there's no there's there's gotta be some kind of mistake. It's empty. The dragon scroll is empty. He still doesn't get it, but when they fight at the very end, the villain steals the dragon scroll and he opens it up. He's like, What the hell? It's just this reflective paper. And then Poe, the the panda, he's like, Yeah, I didn't get it at first, but it's it's it's you. The the dragon warrior is you. The the secret sauce, the secret scroll, the thing everybody's trying to get, it's you. Uh, it's always been you, you're the secret sauce. And then when he explains it to he doesn't get it, right? The the villain doesn't get it, but then he kicks his ass and sends them to the spirit spirit realm. And I think that's what you're doing is you're showing people the dragon scroll, uh, and you're just showing them that it's you, it's you, Ben, and you're highlighting all that that makes them the dragon warrior that I love.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

I get I know exactly and I love that movie too, like for real. Um, because yeah, like it's it's the answers that we're seeking are within us, and but we can't see our own greatness. Like for me, again, I said this earlier, you're my hero, because the version of me that is the greatest, I only see it through the reflection in your eyes. You help me see the potential of what I can be, of what I can become, of who I actually am, um, because I'm blind to it. All I see and pay attention to is, you know, my shortcomings, my failures, the devious, uh, nefarious things I've done. I just keep replaying all of that. But you've helped me see that I'm more than just that. And so, me being able, you recognizing that I'm able to do that for the guests, like that's the goal. That's what I want to do is just help them see a level, well, at least one more level of their greatness, of their awesomeness. I want to help them see it. And this podcast helps me do

Where The Podcast Goes Next

SPEAKER_02 40:54

that. Thank you, man. So, where do you think we're headed? Like, if you could make a prediction based on the six years, what do you see in the future for the podcast and you and me?

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Uh, I think I think AI is gonna get super powerful where there's gonna be a lot, you're gonna be able to do the fancier bells and whistles at like the click of a button or a few buttons. And then you can you can put some lipstick on it, but I think it's gonna be more of the same, and you're just gonna find more and more people to show them the dragon scroll, right? And uh it's just gonna be a fancier, more polished version of what you got right now. I think I I I can't foresee it changing at all.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

It's good. That's good, awesome. Okay, well, do you have any questions or insights before we wrap this bad boy up?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Uh no, I don't. I well, actually, I do, but I already I already have the spoiler, so I'm gonna throw you the curveball later. Later?

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Like, what do you mean? Like after we record?

SPEAKER_01 41:57

No, like you're gonna. I know, I already know what's coming, and that's when I'm gonna give you my question.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Awesome, awesome. Well, dude, like first I gotta say you're amazing, man. Watching you grow up uh since you're a little baby baby, but when I was changing your dieters, uh to now watching you raise your family, be a father, be an amazing brother, an amazing man. Like you've you've done things that I don't think I'll ever be able to do. And more importantly, um you've brought out the best in me always. Uh, and so I'm grateful to you for trusting me and and and standing by me uh through the hard times because there were times where I was somebody that you should have just left on the side. But you've had, I know that you with your friends, you've been um a rock that people go to when they're struggling, when they're having hard times, that you're there to support people and counsel them and advise them, and you always give really thoughtful, uh, meaningful uh direction. And so, with that, uh I don't know if I ever asked you this question before, but I'm gonna ask

The Promise You Are Intended To Be

SPEAKER_02 43:08

you now. What is the promise you are intended to be?

SPEAKER_01 43:52

That's where my curveball comes in. Down with it. Okay. So uh okay, a promise, right? Somebody has to make the promise for it to be a promise. So the promise you're intended to be. I I I want to answer your question, and I absolutely will. Uh, but I first I'm gonna ask you a question. The promise you're intended to be, who who make that promise?

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Whose promise is it? I I think that's a really great, great question. Here's how I think about it. You have four raptors, right? You have four kids. My assumption is when each one of those little babies came into the world, you saw and felt something within your to your bones, in your spirit of why they're here, what they could. Could be how you want to just commit your life to making sure they're safe and they grow. That that sensation, that experience, I recognize to be a promise. Right? Whether you said it out loud, when you first saw them, you made a promise of them, what they are intended to be, or what you'll nurture and support into them becoming or contributing. So to the question of like who made the promise, I would say for me, it was mom. It was Chewy. And then if we go further, kind of back to the dragon scroll idea, which I love, um when people come into contact with us and we give them our true selves, they see a promise. They see our potential, they see uh uh the depth in which we can connect and serve others. And so they make a promise. And so along the way, people that we come into contact with that we serve and connect in a real human way, a promise is formed. And so for me, my goal is to fulfill and live up to that promise. How does that land with you?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Yeah, um, that answers my question. I was just curious. Um, I don't think I've ever heard anybody ask you where the who makes the promise and what I mean you know where the question comes from.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

It was the last time I was in rehab, and my therapist, one of the therapists, said, Jess, like, you're full of crap, you're just playing games, you're manipulating your way through this. And he was right. And he told me, he said, the problem is you don't understand it if you failed to accept that if you continue to live life the way you're living it, you will never become the promise you're intended to be. And I swear, in that moment, I like everything just flushed through my brain, through my head, of all the times that I saw hope in people's eyes when they looked at me. When the disappointment that I saw in people's eyes when I failed to be in my best form, um, the excitement and anticipation I saw in people's eyes when I exceeded what they thought I could do. Like all of it, all the promises that I had broken and that I had planted or fulfilled, I immediately knew the promise I'm intended to be. I was not like the way I was living was I was never gonna be able to do that. Um, and so that's where the idea, the question comes from.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Gotcha. Okay. Well, yeah, I asked first I asked, where did it come from? Because I think that's that's an important uh to me when I was thinking about the quest. Because I already knew I'd been listening to 250 of your episodes, right? I knew this was coming. So I always think about that about where does this promise come from? Who's who makes the promise? Because I think there's situations where some people make um bad promises, right? I don't think somebody can make a bad promise for for you. Um and that's a whole other conversation in itself on how destructive that could be when you're trying to live up to somebody else's promise. So yes. So what helps me think of that, answer that question is I think for me, um the promise is it can only be God-given because it has to

Renee’s Answer: Becoming A Hero

SPEAKER_01 48:06

come from some someplace that's objective and um only only pure, only good. It it can't have its own motives or be corrupted by ego at all. So uh it's gotta be God-given for me. And for me, I think it's a it's a purpose. It's like a God-given purpose. And I think you find that out as as you navigate the world, um, that consistent theme of like how you described how when you're when you're doing things that you didn't think you could, or doing things that somebody told you you couldn't, um, how you feel when you let that person down, or how you feel when you showed up for someone else. Uh, what are you doing when that happens? I think that's where that promise or purpose uh shows itself to you. And I don't know exactly how to title it, but what I'll say is I think the promise I'm intended to be is I think I I really do think I'm I was intended to be a hero. And not like not like a superhero kind, like a martyr kind of hero, but like like more like a a Rango, uh that Kofi Lizard one. Because in that movie, um long story short, he gets thrown into an environment that he had no business being in that environment. And he's trying to survive in that environment, and he's faking his way to fit in. Um, and he gets himself in a lot of trouble, and he ends up having to show up. He he makes himself this hero to fit in, the hero of the town. Um, and then the real villain shows up and he's like, oh dang, I can't be a fake hero anymore. So he runs away. Um, but that gnawing at him, his promise, it it gives him the courage to come back, even though he's been faking it the whole time. And now the opportunity presents itself for him to be a real hero. And then he he defeats the enemy, and you know, now he's a real hero now. Uh, and he doesn't have he doesn't have to fake it anymore either. Uh, and I think I've I'd like I see that theme in my life all the time where I get I get myself into situations where it's like I don't know what the heck I'm doing, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't have I don't think I have the skills, I don't think I have the the poise or the pedigree to do this. And I just try my best and um a situation happens where my purpose shows up. And like I I always rise to the occasion. Um, and I think the very first time that happened was with like the birth of my son. Um that was the situation where it's like, hey, you're you don't got what it takes, right? You can no longer fake it anymore. You need to be a hero now. And I think the my promise is to be a hero, and I see that a lot when uh, like you said, you mentioned about uh mentoring, being there for people, giving meaningful advice, uh being that crying shoulder, um being being the hope for people when everything's going wrong, um, and still being there and still staying positive about the whole thing. Um what no matter what how I've been let down or how I've been wronged or the circumstances that are just not favorable, uh I never I never go evil. Um I always forgive and I always press press on. Uh and I think that's what a hero does. So I think and that stuff drives me. I really I really get motivation from from a hero story, and I really get motivation when uh I overcome a certain obstacles. Um and I think uh yeah, I think it drives me when I feel like I'm being a hero.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Yeah, man. Well, like I said, you really are my hero. Um I'm grateful for you coming into my life and and all the contributions you made. You are a big reason,

Gratitude, Sobriety, And Closing

SPEAKER_02 52:38

a big one of the big catalysts to me finally getting sober and getting my stuff together. Thank you, man. Did you have fun?

SPEAKER_01 52:45

I did. Thank you for having me. Of course, man. All right.