"I'd Rather My Company Go Under Than Stay Quiet": The Subcontractor Project with Tara Cristel

Meet Tara And The Issue

SPEAKER_01 0:00

But you're always robbing Peter to pay Paul because of the way that the industry is designed.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

What is going on, LM family? Back again with another super awesome guest interview. And this one, you know, doing the trend or is like people that I don't even know is the first time we're ever having a conversation. And I have been gushing over her content. I found her in my TikTok feed. She is a fierce leader of the subcontractor project, which we're gonna get into. And it's gonna it's gonna rattle some cages and ruffle some feathers, but it needs to because it's an important thing. She's also a fierce leader at total blast. And above all, it is clear that she is an advocate for subcontractors in general, an advocate for the construction industry. And the big, big like differentiator is she's a pretty damn big advocate for subcontractors getting paid, which is kind of important. Her name is Miss Tara Crystal, and we're gonna get to know all about her and feel some of her energy. Now, if this is your first time here, you're listening to the Learnins in Missteps podcast, where you get a behind-the-scenes view of how amazing human beings, just like you, are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I am Jesse, your selfish servant, and we are about to get to know Miss Tara. Miss Tara, how are you today?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Oh, I'm so good. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Oh my goodness, I love it. And you got the pink hat. So if you're not on the YouTube seeing this video, Miss Tara'd like her one of her trademarks is the pink hat or the pink hard hat. Um to start with a real easy question just to kind of get warmed up and get going into the conversation. Is that all right?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah, go for it.

Why Getting Paid Becomes A Fight

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Oh, here it is. You advocate for subs getting paid.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Well, that's very easy. So I do own a subcontracting business, and so I like to be paid. So that is where it all started at. But truthfully, I was pretty new to the industry, and it took me a while to kind of figure out the ins and outs, of course, as it always does. And I started to really see the payment practices for what they were. And when I tried to speak out on it, I was getting a ton of pushback. And I just, I'm kind of one of those people I love to follow the rules, but I also love to challenge the rules. So for me, it was a situation where, you know, I know this is the way it's been for a long time. I know that's how the industry is set up, and that's what a lot of subcontractors agree to, but I also think that things can be improved upon. And so I just I think it's incredibly important to talk about it because this is an incredibly expensive industry that we work in. I'm on the commercial side, but total residential and commercial is probably about a $2.2 trillion industry. So it affects a lot of people. It's not just me. So once I started to realize that, I started speaking out on it publicly. I've talked to hundreds and thousands of people since I've started speaking out on it. I've heard all of their stories and they're all the same. And I mean, different, but the same, the same concept of how much they're fronting financially, how they can have $12 million of receivables due to them at any given time and they can't make payroll on Wednesday. So it's a very tricky situation. And so I just started to say, you know, I'm gonna start talking about it until we start seeing some change. So that's kind of how I got started with it. And it kind of snowballed once I started speaking about it publicly.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

But awesome. What really, really stuck to me, Tara is, you know, I got a lot of friends that are in subcontracting business. I mean, I'm came from the subcontract concept of construction, came up as a plumber. Um, they're installing, like, I had no concept of like when we were getting paid, how much we were front-end, and all the things. Fast forward to now, I've got a lot of friends that run their own subcontractors' business, and that's the number one pain point. It's not that they don't get paid, how long it takes to get paid after paying all the cost of the material, paying all the labor, doing the work, delivering the work, getting it inspected, and then having to wait 60, 90 plus days to get reimbursed for what they did freaking a quarter ago. Am I exaggerating?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

You're exactly on point, and I love that you use the word reimbursed because that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is. You're being reversed, reimbursed. So we, you know, it's fronted, and the money, honestly, it's like a free loan to those above us, you know, and a lot of people don't like to acknowledge that fact, but it is true. And you you know, sometimes I think subs can try to price that into their bids, but there are a lot of people who go for the lowest bid. So if you try to price it in there, you are very much at risk of being told we're going with the next guy. So it's an easy thing to say that, oh, well, you just need to price better, but it that's a whole nother thing in theory. So I love that you use the word reimbursed because that's exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, it's a little bit of markup, right? There's a little bit of margin on the reimbursement, but they're still holding retainage, right? Whatever it is, 5, 10, 15 after the project is complete. So I mean, yeah, I I think it's probably largely reimbursement because the earnings for the subcontractor are probably up in the retainage, and then that becomes I'm I'm just I don't know for I don't have any like specific studies, but it comes to retainage time, that gets eroded by change orders and disputes and uh you know all the other things that they want to, they meaning everybody subcontractor want to scratch and claw back to their budgets and their you know, whatever their PLs are are mean or whatever they feel is justified. So in the end, um I don't know, I'm just gonna say it like it's kind of like why would you be a subcontractor with so much risk of even making freaking money?

Retainage That Drags For Years

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah, I know. And that's this that's the scariest thing is that, you know, for an example, for me currently, we started a project, we signed the contract in January of 2025. The work was supposed to be completed in the summer of 2025. The GC is holding 10% tainage from us on that. By no fault of our own, that project got pushed back to summer of 2026, and we'd already purchased materials, we'd already done some labor, so we've already paid some of that stuff out. And it got pushed back to summer of 2026. We summer of 2026 arrived, which has been the last few months, and they moved it back now to summer of 2027. And the state law and in the state that I work in is at this point 5% should have already been released. It has not been released, and they do not want to release it because that's not their policy. Um, forcing them to pay me would take legal action, which is going to be very costly and take a lot of my time. So is it even worth me fighting it? Because I'm gonna probably spend more in attorney fees than I am in the money of retainage that's due to me at this point. And I actually did a little digging and I found out that they're only being held 5% retainage. So the prime contract, they're not even being held 10% from them. So they are definitely using either, I don't know what they're doing with it. They either use it for working capital in their company or they're using it for a lot of people saying, I don't know. And I hate to make these claims because I don't know because I've never worked in a GC office, I've never been an owner, I've never been a lender, so I can't speak onto what really happens. But a lot of subs do think that sometimes that gets used and put into accounts that they make interest off of. And either way, that is very unfair. And I don't even know that I like the word unfair. Right. I have a lot of feelings about the word unfair. I used to be a teacher, so I taught a lot of humans in this world. And I think the word unfair is just used too much at times, but I even use it for that because you're not giving us a choice. We've done the work that we said we would do, it's been approved. There's no reason that you can't give us some of our money to make sure that our company can still continue to carry on, you know. So it's an interesting dynamic for sure.

The Cost Of Doing Business Myth

SPEAKER_00 8:38

You know, there's something that's in that, right? And I'm sure you've, I mean, if you're in it, you know. There's so many people in stuck in the middle. And by people, I mean, let's just say, like the project manager for the general contractor, um, a cable for the general contract. Like it's not their fault, right? It's the system that they work in. These are the people you interact with, so it's very easy to have for them. And I've I've used these words, and I think I've heard it in some of your content is like me to finance the project for you. I understand the feeling, right? Like, I get it. But that little project manager, you know, whoever it is, it's not their PL, they're just managing uh uh budget, they're not the ones making the decision. So their natural response is like, what a cost of doing business because they don't individual that represents the GC are not at risk, they don't have all this capital at risk. You as the subcontractor, so what do you say to that it's the cost of being doing this? Don't talk to me about fair or unfair. You chose to be a subcontractor.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yeah, I usually kind of go to the structure of it. I've tried to argue it quite a bit with a lot of words and a lot of theory to support it, but sometimes it's too much. And someone recently in my comments, I actually private messaged her and said, Thank you so much for saying that, because that really what it comes down to. But there was someone really coming at me about what I was saying. And I mean, he had some good points, but he it's just he truly doesn't understand what the system truly is. He's only seeing it from his perspective, right? And um, she some woman popped up in my comments and said, Well, let's just say that they decide to hold his paycheck for 60, 90 days, and I bet he changed his opinion real fast. And it really does come down to that, you know. And so a lot of them will say those things where, well, you signed it, or this is just the way it is, or it's the cost of doing business. But when you really get down to the thick of it and what it is and the contracts that are provided, you know, it's the people who make a lot more money than we do who are the ones who even make the contracts. So they're putting clauses in there that you just sometimes can't fight. Now, I do negotiate my contracts. I've learned that the hard way that you absolutely have to do that. And I think that companies who don't are at risk of putting themselves out of business.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

However, I've had a lot of people reach out and say, I've tried, and they just say no, and they actually get offended and move on to the next contractor. And they say it happens a lot where they're at. And luckily, I'm we're pretty specialty, so we're glass and glazing. So, you know, that's I feel unfortunately for some subs, they have a ton of competition. You know, glass and glazing doesn't have as much competition. So they kind of have to work with us a little bit on it. But there are a lot who that doesn't work for, and just to tell them, well, too bad, that's just putting them out of business. And that's just not, it's not a system that's built for everyone in it to be successful, and that's what I'm looking to change.

Community Shoutout And Quick CTA

SPEAKER_00 11:42

To do the LM family member shout out, and this one goes to Mr. Russell, who I may have shouted him out before, uh, but he the time to make a post, actually. And this is what Russell Padilla said. He said, These beautiful people have so much knowledge about the construction industry, and yesterday was awesome hearing them share it with me. I made two commitments to the group, so you know the tribe is going to keep me accountable on those commitments. Thanks, Jesse, for setting these sessions up. Russell, I appreciate you, brother, for all the things you're doing out there in the industry and for being a part of the construction leadership lab. The thing that he was talking about, y'all, is the construction leadership lab. It is wide open. If you want more information, let me know. There'll be links in the comments and or in the thing. Hit the link. And if you don't know, I love attention. And so anytime you leave stars or share this with people, leave a comment, leave a review. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and it gives me an excuse to shout you out on a future episode. I and that can contribute to that and to some degree.

Pay-When-Paid Clauses And Slow Pay Apps

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Um, I'm gonna pick on it a little bit more because you do have some success stories, you've out actually negotiated some things and found some GCs that are like paying you with the quickness. I'm fortunate. The majority of the clients I work with, and I have a lot of GC clientele, I get paid quick. And I'm like, this is awesome. You know, I've had a couple that it you know took a millennium, but whatever. Um the ones that because we know there are some bad actors that are that just kind of like the example you gave earlier, the prime contract says five percent, but but see that firm is deciding 10 or whatever in terms of retainage group situation. What are the contribute, what are the drivers behind the late pay and retainage thing? I kind of understand the retainage, but between just the lag in the reimbursement, and when I say drivers, like seems like it's a GC subcontractor thing, but it's not necessarily right, because there's the owner, there's the owner's rep, there's the bank, the financing, like like a cascading issue. Somebody in that the value stream or that list of stakeholders, they could freaking make a call and just change it entirely.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah. So I think it's a I think it's a variety, you know. So just like we have good and bad subs, and I think we have good and bad GCs, I think they're good and bad through all of it. And the truth is, I also think I'm very big on this just in life in general. I think people don't understand things unless they experience it. So when I start speaking up and saying, this is wrong, this should not be how this is, it should be this way, this is possible. People sometimes look at me like, oh, she's just complaining or she just doesn't understand, and they try to explain it more. It's because they don't know because they've never experienced that before in their own life. They have a whole different amount of struggle. I also think that I don't necessarily understand what the GCs or the owners go through either, because I've never been a GC and I've never been an owner. I am willing, though, to have those conversations and have an open mind about it because I think that's what it takes for us to make this whole system better. So that's one part of it. The other part is that in our contracts, it's very common for pay when paid and pay if paid to be written into a contract. And that is honestly two of the worst clauses you can find in a contract because there that means that there is no date that you have to be paid. And even though the pay when paid clause says, well, if the GC is paid, well, then you can be paid. It's kind of a junky clause because when did the GC get paid? There's no transparency. I don't know when they got paid. There, they could have been paid months ago, and I have no idea. And when I call them, they just say, oh, next week, or oh, we haven't got paid yet. And there is no, hey, we don't know, but we contacted them and they promised us by this date we'd have it. That means we can get it to you by this date. There's never any of that. It literally is just, we don't know. We don't know when you can be paid, or they don't respond and email. You know, there's a lot of things like that happen. Now, there are some states that have gone to ban pay when paid and pay if paid, which I think is incredible. And I'm honestly working in the state that I live in to have that changed on our contracts too. But the issue then is, like I said, holding people accountable with to that without having to use a court to fight it is hard, you know. So a lot of people are just used to the system being what it is and they just rely on that. So it's just really kind of a funky thing. I do think that GCs have to go through a lot of trouble to submit pay apps. So, you know, I am just one sub, but they could have probably 50 subs on a project, especially multi-million dollar projects. And they have to have everything just perfect. If it isn't lined up just right, they're not the ones kicking it back. It's either an architect, an architect a lot does it, or the bank doesn't agree with it and it gets sent back and it holds everything up. But I am a firm believer that we live in a world where things can move instantaneously anymore. And there's no reason that we are operating like horse and buggy when we submit pay applications. And I've talked to enough people and I've been through this enough that there are actually programs already out there that could make this turnaround so much faster. It's already in use. There's patents on some of them. It would really make it doable for us to submit our pay apps, the GC to be able to turn around quick, quicker to the owner, for the owner to be able to turn it back around to the bank quicker and the payment to move and it get paid out just like this. It's possible to have the vendors as a part of it. If money gets held up anywhere, you know exactly where it's held up, why it's held up, who hasn't paid. It shows when the subs pay their vendors. So it keeps everybody really honest. But to get the buy-in to get people to want to do it is really tricky, you know? So it we really are just stuck in not wanting to change right now. And we really need people to start having more forward thinking. And how can we make this better for everybody?

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, I think

Seeing The GC Side Without Excusing It

SPEAKER_00 18:06

you nailed it. Like the forward thinking is it's not a priority, right? And Tara, hopefully you don't judge me for this. But I did work on the GC side for about three and a half years and found out they're people too. And you said it a little while ago. I swear, when I took the job, I had spent over, I don't know, 20, 20 plus years on the subcontractor side as a plumber with a mechanical contractor here in Texas. And I'm like, I'm finally gonna show these dummies how to do it. Surrounded by nothing but freaking ignorant, short-sighted jerks that want to scream and yell. And when I got there, I'm like, oh wow, like they are people like for real, they were just like us. They had similar problems, just with different stakeholders. Like, we would never see the pro as a subcontractor, foreman, superintendent, whatever. I could never see the friction and the pains, the wrestling matches that they were having with the owner, the like all the other people. And like, oh crap, damn it. Okay, I can't just come in swinging a hammer, right? I gotta be decent with them. Now, back to the point on it's just not a priority. I think one of the big contributors is you as an owner, subcontractor. This is like getting paid is a personal experience. Because you got to figure out how to pay, keep payroll going, keep people employed, and how that affects your personal finance, all things. Sure, people can say, like, so hygiene is your proud, like, yes, but the system's busted too. And so for the subcontractor, it is personal, but for just about everybody else upstream of the subcontractor getting paid, it's just a process. It doesn't affect them personally, which goes back to your the the state somebody made on your post is like let's see them have their paycheck held up for two weeks, like forget a month, forget six months for two weeks and see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

What Separates Fast-Paying Teams

SPEAKER_00 20:13

So yeah, I now we you you've alluded to this, and I I am fortunate, and then the majority of my clientele, I get paid super quick. Oh and so there are teams, I won't say companies, because I don't think it's a company policy to make sure people get paid with the quickness. But I feel like you can help me. Is there, do you see that getting paid rapidly is a matter of the team that you're working on, or is it a matter of like the company that every job you've ever done with them, you get paid quickly?

SPEAKER_01 20:47

That's an interesting question. I would say maybe a little mix of both. So there's a GC that we're working with that I actually really like quite a bit. And they've been giving us a lot more work, thank goodness, because they pay fairly quickly. And we've started working with a bunch of different project managers with them, and it feels like they pay just consistently fast or they handle everything pretty well. And it's a very large company, they're one of the largest ones in the St. Louis area, and then they have offices in Vegas too. So they're not just here in Illinois. Um, but then I have another one where sometimes it can be like pulling teeth, but the project manager really just was like, I want you on this project. And she kind of fought for us to be on it, even though we're a smaller subcontractor and it was a larger project. And her and I had a lot of conversations about the financial side of it, why it was important to me. And I feel like she goes to bat for me all the time. Now, I've done other jobs for the same company, and it's a little bit of a different buy because that relationship wasn't built. So I think it's kind of a mix, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, the one thing that stands out is you know, I've been on. On multiple projects all over the country for a long time. And what I see, and this is me saying this, this isn't Ms. Tara, this is me. The difference is not the company, it's always the leader on the job. There are some people that are people centered and give a damn and will take care of good people, whether it's their staff, subcontractors, whatever. And then within the same company, down the block, you have a ding-dong meathead that just likes to make people miserable. Maybe they don't like to, but it's like the um they're no, it's what happens, right? Just because they don't treat people well, they don't value people. The process is the process, shut up, do your work. Um, and it's what's important for decision makers within these general contractors, bigger general contractors, like I kind of like you've been getting away with it for a long time. But with the current state of dwindle, like the exodus of the boomers, smaller workforce that's available to work. We're making fewer babies consistently, year after year after year, and people can make money at home selling pictures of their feet on the internet, right? I mean, for real. Like, you you girl, you I'm sure you're like, what if I start a community on TikTok? You can make a living doing that and not deal with all this other crap. So I feel like there, those factors are coming together and they're getting more and more pronounced as you know, more people exit. The smart forward-thinking leaders, decision makers, are gonna have like they're gonna say, Oh shit, we gotta do something different. And it is a structural thing that a firm, a general contracting firm, can do differently, and it would be a differentiator for a subcontractor to say, wait a minute, they promise the longest I'm ever gonna have to wait is 45 days to get paid, which is a hell of a long time, and which just kind of um points at the issue is like the bar's low, y'all. The bar is so low. I guarantee you will not have to wait longer than 45 days to get paid. Guess what? I think they're gonna get preferred pricing. Yes, do you think they're gonna get qualified bidders to say, man, I want to work on that project with those people because I'm gonna get paid? Hell yes. And so it could be a differentiating factor in them for to access the the better qualified and um discretional effort that subcontractors do provide. Am I is that like a Disneyland fairy tale idea, Tara?

SPEAKER_01 24:41

No, I think you're absolutely correct.

When A GC Sits On Your Pay App

SPEAKER_01 24:43

I recently have been paid um in net 30 on two projects, two different GCs, two different projects. And I literally told my husband, which we go above and beyond, I think, anyways, because I feel like you have to show up as a sub. If we say we're gonna be there, we're there. If we have to go back, we're going back. You know, we look at it like we're all a team. It isn't just give me my money and I'm not coming. So we really do show up. But I told my husband, I said, if they don't understand, if they all did this, we would really be doing above and beyond for these guys. I mean, I we would go above and beyond. We would do everything that you possibly need us to do because we feel like we're being treated fairly in it, you know. And I we we have a guy uh the you know, they gave us work when we first started, so I have to give credit to them for that. However, since I've become to understand how it works and the financial structure of it, I've it's starting to be a struggle with them. And recently I'd been waiting for almost 70 days for payment. I called him to find out why. And finally, well, at first it was ignoring me for several weeks. So I finally, it's a per it's a public project. I requested the records that go with the project because it's public information. I would not have done that if he would have just called me back and had a conversation with me, but I felt like I had to. I didn't know what to do. Well, come to find out on that project, they're being held zero retainage, we're being held 10% retainage. They have been paid for pay apps and we haven't been paid. And he took offense to it because he said I made him look bad to the school district, which the school district doesn't care. They're just giving us the records because they're they have to, you know. And he essentially told me uh he didn't turn in my pay applications and that now he's gonna have to bankroll me and was talking to me like we were just a piece of junk company. And literally he didn't turn them in. You can how can you treat us that way? And I just looked at my husband. I said, We'll never work for him again. We will finish these jobs out, we will do the best that we can do. I will be professional, but never, ever again will we do work for them. And I don't care if they have a come to Jesus moment in their office. I'm just done at this point because you've treating us like we're just terrible people and all we're looking to do is to get paid, you know. So I do agree that it how you treat the people really, it's just like in your own company, you know, we try to treat our people really good because we want to keep them around. Your subs are like an extension of your company. So you have to treat them well.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

A hundred percent. Uh good for you uh in deciding, like, okay, they're going on the dead to me list because when people show you who they are, believe them. Just believe them. Like, bottom line, again, this is me saying it, not you. If you didn't know this, there's a dummy tax, and this has nothing to do with how long you take to pay us or pay subcontractors. And what I mean by the dummy tax is I've been asked many, many times later in my career, like, hey Jess, we want to go after this project, we want to be aggressive, we want to cut labor by 15%. It's a tenant finish out, blah, blah, blah. Okay, who's it with? And then they would tell, well, you know, this GC. Okay, who's their PM and who's their superintendent? And when they told me the names, I'm like, uh-uh, we will lose our butt because them clowns can't plan, coordinate themselves out of a wet paper bag. Like, we needed them a point, like a 1.25 multiplier because we're gonna scratch and claw and fight our way throughout the entire project just to make budget. And the inverse is true. So, like in that case, I would say this person probably gets that from a lot of subcontractors, they don't even know it. And also, you're not gonna get my best team, you're gonna get the C and D players because my A and B players are on a job where I can make money. Sorry, that's what it is. The folks that are like like the woman you were speaking about earlier, it's like, oh my god, like your point eight because they know how to plan, they know how to coordinate, they're gonna treat us well. Yes, we're gonna fight. There's gonna be this, there's always gonna be conflict. That's okay. But I know we can make money with them. So let's give them a discount. They're gonna get the best team, they're gonna get best performance, which they can, just like you said a little while ago, they can then pass that savings on to the owner, which then can earn them greater market share just because they're taking care of people. I I understand why. Why do people do it? Because they can, right? The ugly stuff. Why do people do the nice stuff? Because they can. And so I just think that now the conditions are that people aren't gonna be able to get away with being ding dongs for very much longer. I mean, they're probably gonna they won't change their ways, they'll just go out of business, which needs to happen.

Stop Rewarding Bad Terms With Bids

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Now, all of that to make this point, Tara, is what suggestions do you have for subcontractors out there that continue to chase work with GCs that treat them like garbage? We're contribu like we're contributing to the problem by continuing to freaking bid the work.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yeah. So that's that's a huge problem. And it's the reason we're still where we're at in this. If we could all there's power in numbers, and if more of us would show up and say we're not signing things that are pay went paid, pay have paid, we just don't operate that way, we wouldn't necessarily need the laws to change in states. We it would just have to naturally change because they would not be able to get people to work for them and they need people to work for them. The reason the mentality is too bad, you signed it, this is just the way it is, it's because people are willing to show up and do it. And I have recently really started putting a call out to subcontractors saying, This is kind of your responsibility too, you know. I'm right, I'm about to publish a book. It's almost done. Um, I'm I've had to edit it five times because I just, you know, but I just have to be done. I just need to get it out there. In the very last chapter of my book, I changed it to where it really is a call to subcontractors of you are kind of the problem, though, too. I mean, this is what we experience. It is a book to help them feel related to, because you often do feel like you're alone in the struggles of what your business is because people don't speak about it publicly very much. But there is a reality that you are responsible for this too. And as long as you're willing to sign the paperwork that has terrible terms or work for people who take 120 days to pay, then we're we're never gonna get out of it. We will always have to fight these legal battles. We're always going to have the struggles of not being paid on time. And that is something that I hope that I can reach more people in that way because it is just our responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

I love that. Yeah, you super appreciate what really stood out to me in your content that I found on TikTok. So, folks, the subcontractor project. If you're a TikToker, look at look for the subcontractor, great stuff. Is that you're it's this holistic view? It's not just oh, they don't pay us on time, it's it's not for it's like, no, this is a systemic issue. There's some things in place that are creating the conditions, and we are contributing to it too. So you're taking ownership for that part of it, which I think is the only way it's probably why you're having the success that you're having, is because if you you already know this, but LM family members out there, if you don't know what you spend blaming is wasted energy when you start taking ownership for your part on it, then you can affect change. So shout out to the GC staff out there that put in the time and effort and care to make sure their subcontractors are getting paid on time. We love you, keep doing that, do more of that. Shout out to the subcontractors out there that have the discipline and the integrity to only work with people that appreciate and treat people with respect. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Is that I think that's fantastic. Yep. I think that's fantastic because I think a lot of that would change it all. It would change the entire industry. It would, and the morale would be up, you know. And what I think I'm scared of in this whole thing is that people are gonna get so burnt out that people are just gonna start closing their doors. And yes, the the industry is already having a struggle with labor. We don't have enough of it, and people are aging out, and so it's gonna be tough at some point to get subs to good subs to come in and do the work. And the reality is GCs allowing people to sign stuff like that too. It they're kind of the problem too, because you're not getting the best subs. So then they'll say, Well, they didn't come back and finish their work. Well, you took the lowest baller, and that's part of the problem, too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yes, yeah. You know, I had I had that exact or a similar argument with the superintendent for guy. Me and him, we were all he was a GC as a sub here in San Antonio, and we had like over five years, we're on like project after project together. And you remember the cartoon with uh foghorn, leghorn, and the dog where they would fight all like throughout the cartoon at the end, they were buddies and they'd kind of like clock out and walk out for the day. That was how he and I were like he was a fun guy, but we just fought all day long. The end of the day, it's like hey Tommy, I'll see you tomorrow. Okay, cool. It's one day we really, really had it out, and he was like, Man, I'm sick and tired of working with you and your company. All we got is pre- Madonna's, wah, wah. And I'm like, stop, like, you picked me, stupid. I don't want to be here either. Y'all picked me, like what this isn't my fault. What are you talking about? And to your point, right? Is you're picking them now. I'm also gonna say, us as subcontractors, we're picking them too. And so we collectively, I think, rather, I don't think, I'm confident that this can change if we collectively start making uh big, start thinking about a bigger picture, not just our little process, not just us, but we we make it better because people have options and there's no reason um to show up to a situation where they're gonna be undervalued, strung along, and kept in the dark. Like everybody knows that. And then, like you said, with technology, we should have a dashboard where every subcontractor can go look at and see where their pay app is in the process.

Transparency Tools And Real-Time Payment Tracking

SPEAKER_00 36:34

I know, I mean, even I could do that.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah, transparency is one of the biggest, transparency is one of the biggest issues, in my opinion. There just is not any, you know. Ever I do have a few uh GCs that we work with that I will call and say, Hey, um, looking at when payment can come, and they'll give me a legit answer within 24 hours. They'll say, We turned in the pay app on this day. They generally take this main days to pay, which means we'll get paid on this day, and we do think we'll get you paid as soon as this date. If not, we'll let you know. And I I can't tell you how much I appreciate that because there's a planning to this. I have bills to pay. I have to make payroll on Wednesday, and I don't know if payments are coming and I need to pay my guys, you know. So that part for me blows my mind when you email or call a GC and it's just no response, or just it's we don't know. We haven't been paid. I that is the answer so many times. I talked to somebody the other day, they called me and said that they had a GC told them they'd be paid on a Friday. It didn't come. The next Friday didn't come. The next Friday it was, oh shoot, there was like some kind of technology problem. The next Friday it was another problem. And then the next Friday was, well, we're actually not planning to pay you. And I'm like, that's crazy, which that's you know, that's a pretty extreme situation. But sometimes that's how long it can go on of just no answer of when you're gonna be paid. And when you are fronting materials, $200,000, $300,000, $400,000, that's a lot of money. And it you can't just pretend like that's just not a thing. And my vendors and people will tell me all the time, too. Well, you need to negotiate with your vendors. Okay, I will, but not a lot of my vendors want, to be honest, because they have bills to pay too. And all that does is push them downstream. You're still just pushing, somebody's still financing it. You know, that doesn't help at all. It does me personally, it does the people above me, but it's not helping them, and all we're doing is just keep pushing down the payment more and more. So we have to get better at that part of it.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

We absolutely do, and I applaud you for talking about it the way you do, and and like for real fruit, for not letting it sour you because you have an amazing energy and a very positive uh way talking about things when you have every excuse to be salty about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's why I started talking about it early this year. I um had a situation where it was our largest project we've ever worked on. The GC didn't pay, just wasn't paying.

The Breaking Point That Sparked The Mission

SPEAKER_01 39:22

There was no reason why, just wasn't paying. And we had had about $200,000 that was just sitting there for months and months. And we're small companies, so that's a big deal. And we put a lien on the building, we did all the things, but still nothing was happening. Payment still wasn't coming, and it was coming out of winter time, which is already tough, anyways. And I one day was just sitting at my house and I was feeling a bit broken because I didn't know what to do. I didn't because banks at that point were just like, we can't even guarantee that you'll get that money back. So we don't even want to loan you money for it because it's been so long. And I just did not know what to do. And just something inside me just it was like a little spark. It was like, if I can't do anything about it, I'm gonna start talking about it. Cause what do I have to lose at this point? And so I did. I just started speaking on it, and almost instantly I realized that there were thousands of people that agreed with what I was saying and that had the same story. And so for the next couple of weeks after that, it was message after message of people sending me Zoom links and phone numbers. Please call me. I need to talk to you. Please, can we get and I literally for weeks, and at this point, I was just so burnt out on the company part of it. I was like, sure, I'll talk to people. So I started talking to people, and you know what? It changed for me a little bit when I first started talking about it. It was more of just a personal thing, like just a way of finding relief and a very hard struggle I was having. But it turned from that to this is affecting thousands of people from across our country, mom and pop shops. I talked to a guy who was revenuing $50 million a year, and he says that he has over $12 to $15 million in past due receivables, 60 days or longer at any given time. And I just started to realize in those moments when I was talking to all those people, people from the UK were even calling me. I had people from everywhere just want to have conversations. And whenever the guy that was telling me about the 12 to 15 million in receivables at any given time, I realized in that moment it doesn't matter how much money I make it, you know, because my husband and I were kind of stuck in this thing. Well, if we can get to the next job, we'll get this much more money. And if we can get this money, then we can pay this off and this, but you're always robbing Peter to pay Paul because of the way that the industry is designed. And it was just, I just decided at that time I was like, we'll never be successful in this if something doesn't change, you know? And so just through all those conversations, and now for me, it's more of just a passion, I think, because I know how many people it affects and how many families. And I know personally how much a lot of us put into this when it's your own company, you know, the blood, sweat, and tears, and to watch people have to close their companies because they're not being paid in a timely way, and then be accused of just being financially irresponsible or you signed it and you knew what you were getting into. And that doesn't change what it really is and what's truly happening. And do I think it's the G now, are there some bad GCs? Yes, I've had the experience of it, you probably have, but GCs have the experience of bad subs too, you know. So there's a little bit of bad in all of it, but the reality is, even though there are good and bad players in every part of it, it doesn't change that it needs to change. And it doesn't matter that I can have a good working relationship with some GCs when as a whole it's a problem across the board. So, and you know, I think residential people might have it a little bit better. I don't really know. I can't speak at people say that they require the money up front and that kind of stuff, and it helps them in that way. But I just for commercial, it just it isn't, it doesn't work that way, and people aren't willing to pay you unless you've already paid your vendors or you can prove that you have, you know, if you one of the big things is they'll tell us that you need to have all your materials in in your possession before you can even bill it for us. Well, then the billing process takes 60, 70, 80, 90 days, and my vendors, as soon as it's delivered on site, sometimes I have to pay it before it's even delivered, but then I have to pay. And it's that's crazy to me. And when people tell me that, it blows my mind because they just they really do not understand the reality of what that is, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah, yeah. Again, it's it's thinking of general contractor staff, it ain't their bank account, it's some little budget that they're managing, and they don't like there's no risk to them. Whereas for you, it's all risk for you. Um, there so we absolutely can do better now. So the subcontractor project, I know that's the like the name of your TikTok channel. Is is there more to it, or they like what's going on with that?

The Subcontractor Project And Industry Reform

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Yeah, so there is, it's slow because I work full-time in my job. I'm taking on social media too, and all the things, but it is a platform that I've created where the whole point of it is to create reform in the construction industry, and in such a way that will and it's catered mostly to the financial side of it, but to be honest, there's other sides of the industry that really need to have some reform in it too. For sure. Started with the financial part because of that. So it's really just a platform to do that. I have started a podcast, so I do have a podcast for it, and it really the point of the podcast is to bring and the subcontractor project. is to bring all voices from the chain to the same table to have a conversation together. Cause I do not believe that we'll change until every single person is sitting in a room and has a voice of how it affects them and how can we make this better as a whole. So that's the whole thing. It is looking at making change in the state that I live in. I will be working very hard to push that for other states after the state that I live in. I have to go through the process myself before I can help other people make change in their state. And since I don't live in Wyoming or California or those places, I can't be the one to bring it, but I do have the skills and ability I think at this point to help people go to their legislation folks and say, this is what we want to do. And so that kind of thing to help support it. So it's just it's really just the way I wrote the book to help kind of people understand what subcontractors go through. So it's really just a platform to kind of it's called the subcontractor project because I'm a subcontractor but it truly is a platform to bring everybody together to have a conversation that I think are desperately needed in the industry and to make for better change.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Oh yes applause because thank you that you didn't have to do it but you're doing it because it needs to be done and you're just you're amazing Tara so you mentioned the book what is the name of the book the book is the subcontractor trap. Okay the subcontractor oof that's an intriguing title girl okay yeah yeah I honestly wrote it mostly for subcontractors of course because I'm a subcontractor and I can relate to what we go through.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

I wrote it originally because I wanted it to be something that subcontractors could read and say oh my gosh I'm not the only one because I know that is what most of us experience. We sit in our offices we're not honest with everybody about what it is that we experience because from the outside people are telling you well you didn't manage your money well enough you didn't do this you didn't do that you know all of these things but the reality is we are all experiencing some really heavy things as the owners of the companies and I wanted to give people something they could relate to and tell them they're not the only ones. But then as I started writing it I was realizing that I honestly want everyone to read it. I want the GCs to read it I want the owners I want the bankers I want everyone to read it because the reality is everyone really does need to know what it's like down here, you know, at the bottom of the chain. And there is a lot of risk that is pushed down and that is a lot of weight to carry. And I know to a lot of people it's like well we'll just move to the next company there'll always be another subcontractor but that is that's going to burn out soon enough. And I don't think that people understand that. So it started as something to really give subcontractors to say I'm not the only one and have some kind of normalcy in what they experience because I think a lot of us are pretty quiet about it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

But I but it's not meant I there is no part of it where we you know I do give a few stories in the book of things I've experienced and it's you know at the hand of a GC but it is not in any way shape or form written to trash GCs or to trash the owners it really is a call to this is really what we truly experience because I do believe if you don't experience it you can't understand it.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

So yeah totally totally okay oh my goodness so anyone ever said what is wrong with you Tar? Why are you talking about this? You have what you're an owner of a subcontractor business.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Aren't you afraid that you're not going to get work has at least one person pitched that idea to you a lot of people have and a lot of people have told me they would never hire us again because I say it but you know I don't care though. I'm at the point I don't care I think I even told my husband I'd rather my company go under and to actually make some real change in this world that affect people every single day than to stay quiet. And I just I can't I'm like I said I'm a person who I like to follow the rules but I like to change the rules too because some rules are meant to be broken in my opinion. And just because this is the way it is I just I can't believe that's just the end all be all we're just going to keep going with it. You know yeah I'm willing to take the brunt of that you know so it is what it is. I I we have I have my husband and I have had a lot of conversations of do you think I should step away from the company you run it and I'll do this separately but when we come down to it just wholeheartedly no because a lot of the reason I think people can relate to me is because I do own a subcontracting business. Yeah yeah you know if I was just some girl in a pink hard hat which some people have a hard time with that but if I was just some girl with a pink hard hat some girl who doesn't know she's talking about but the fact that I can put my company to it and say and have experiences and be able to talk to people I think that's a huge part of it too and people feel like they can relate to me because of that.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

So yeah we're gonna absolutely absolutely I just see you as a beacon I mean you're doing it out loud for the world to hear and I think that if it hasn't already happened it will be happening. You're emboldening people to subconnector owners to at least have that conversation locally on a one-on-one thing where they might have avoided it before but it's like hey Tara's doing it on TikTok I could talk to this fool one on one like yeah you're just setting the example which is amazing and then I applaud you for that and thank you for it because we need it right people are suffering they don't have to all right well ask you the Grand Slam home run question Miss Tara but before that where do we send people because I'm sure there's a bunch of that are getting fired

Where To Follow Tara And Get Involved

SPEAKER_00 50:21

up and like oh I need more tower where do we send them okay so I am on LinkedIn I started on LinkedIn so I have a ton of content on LinkedIn that that's that I was there a lot.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

I recently got into TikToks and found me on TikTok and I am starting to put a lot more content on there so there will be a lot more of that coming from me there. And then I will have a website for the subcontractor project in the next couple weeks. It's not up quite yet but it will be up to for people to kind of come there and interact and schedule time with me to talk because part of this is I do need to keep talking to subbies and even GCs like I said anybody who wants to call me if you want to call me and tell me you disagree with me please do I'll have the conversation about it. You know it's so incredibly needed. I have I do not have all the answers so I need people my book will be coming out soon and then my podcast is called the subcontractor project. So I only have one episode out so far but I have two more recorded so those should be coming out in the next couple weeks.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

So um all right so I'll make sure I collect the links and we'll have them in the show notes folks you already know follow like just follow her and engage in her content so we can get that out and then of course if you want to talk to her like amazing amazing wow sounds so impressive um okay I'm excited about what your answer is gonna be to the closing question. All right because like when I did the introduction I was struggling like oh and the word fierce just kept coming across because like what about you're talking about stuff for the world

A Promise To Lead With Positivity

SPEAKER_00 51:52

to hear and it could impact your business and you're doing it anyways. So for me that's just fierce courage you've taken just decided to lead this movement because it needs to not because somebody asked you to just because you saw there was a gap and you're gonna do something about it do it with a positive forward thinking energy not a judgmental critical whiny energy like there's just much about you that's like man this is a human being that I want to be like when I grow up and that's why I'm excited about what your answer is going to be.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

So here's the question what is the promise you are intended to be the promise that I'm intended to be is to make positive change in this world in a way that does not tear other people down and can help people to relate to those who I am speaking up for I only represent a small group of people obviously but I desperately want to make positive change in a way that doesn't have to bring negativity to bring the positive change. So man wouldn't it be so much easier we could just go punch some people in the nose yeah sometimes I want to but I don't goodness you are amazing uh you're your beacon of positivity and hope that our industry needs did you have fun I had so much fun thank you so much and thank you for being a big fan of mine I really appreciate that kind of stuff is weird for me still you know when people are like oh my gosh I love it because it does help me give me energy like okay I'll keep going but thank you so much for being a big fan too I really appreciate it and I just I love to hear from people like you too because it's so important to hear other people's perspective of what I'm saying and you know is it helping is it changing or you know all the good things. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.