Built Not Forced: Jody Fitzgerald on Ownership, Flow, and Building People (Not Just Buildings)

Welcome And Meet Jody Fitzgerald

SPEAKER_01 0:00

We can all say it. We don't build buildings. We build people that build buildings. And that is so true.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

What is going on, LM family? I, you know, it would be a lie if I said I got a treat for you, because I have a treat for me and you. Because our guest today, I have never had a conversation with him. We've interacted on the LinkedIn and we're very support each other in our content. He's got an amazing message. And this is the very first time we're ever going to talk. So I'm I'm geared up. Now, let me tell you a little bit about our guest. He's got 40 plus years in the field. So some real salt, some real deep experience. And I imagine through multiple levels of or of the organizations in construction, he's an author. He is the author of Built Not Forced. And I think the thing that really spoke to my soul about his content that attracted to me was he's committed to training the next generation of superintendents. And y'all already know how I feel about the skill set that or the situation of us just throwing people in the field leadership and playing the sink or swim game. And so since he's so committed to that, it means a ton to me and I'm eager to get to know him. His name is Mr. Jody Fitzgerald, whose name's Jordan, but goes by Jody. Now, if this is your first time here, this is the Learnins and Missteps podcast, where you get an inside view at how amazing human beings, just like you, are sharing their gifts and talents to leave the world better than they found it. I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we're about to get to know Mr. Jody. Mr. Jody, how are you, sir?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

I am doing absolutely fantastic. It's a beautiful Monday afternoon, and life doesn't get any better than this.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Man, I'm telling you, and we get to hang out and shoot the breeze. So am I wrong?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Are you in Florida? No, I was in Florida until a couple months ago. We moved up to South Carolina, about two hours from Adam. And we've got three of our boys live here and several of our grandchildren. So we thought it was time to cut back here before we missed their growing up. And so it's kind of cool to be back and hanging out with the kids and just doing life the way it should be done.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yeah, man. That that's awesome. What's interesting, I it I don't understand why, and it doesn't matter. Um, but there's like a high concentration of I'll call them construction influencers in the Carolinas, like in South Carolina, mostly South Carolina, but a few in North Carolina, and I don't understand why, but it's awesome. And we don't see each other. That's ain't that interesting. That is an interesting thing. Yeah, because like we got Christy and Angela with Women Talk Construction. They're in the area. You mentioned Adam. They just they're just some amazing people out that way. I get to visit every now and then, but it's been a while. All right, Mr. Jody. So I like to start off with the warm-up easy question. How do you feel about that? They're all they're all easy. Okay, good.

Why Most Jobs Have No Flow

SPEAKER_00 3:16

So here's the this the softball question is why do so few projects lack or have flow?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Why do so few projects? Well, that's easy because most of the superintendents don't understand what flow is. I mean, it's just yeah, so many guys out there running jobs that aren't running jobs. They just they walk around, they don't know what they're looking at, and they let the trade partners just run the job, and they just gotta hope it stays somewhat intact and they can finish within the same year they're supposed to.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

I mean, it's yeah, I'm sure you know I did work on the dark side for a few years, but I'm 100% biased to trades. Actually, I have a problem, a hang-up with the word or phrase trade partner, but that's not really important. But the jobs that I hated the most were the ones where the GC said, go play and hurry up. And it didn't say those words, but that was kind of how it was. And I'll say the early part of my career, it was like 95% of the projects I was on. Like they were just a disaster. Forget the safety hazards and the morale and the quality that was all of it was abysmal. But we nobody could get anything done, and it was always just screaming and yelling and blaming and hurry up. Yeah, and I swear for the earliest part of my career, I'm like, man, it's like do they take a class on how to do this? Because they're really good at doing it consistently.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Yeah, because nobody knew what they were doing. I mean, it was just let you you guys go get along, work it out. I mean, I hate that, but I'll go back to your trade trade partners is way better than subcontractors, in my opinion. Just because sub the it's you're below me. And so trade partners, I think, is a huge step up. But without trade partners, superintendents is nothing, absolutely nothing. I can't get it done without them. That's why respect is so important and understanding them and getting along with them and building that team, which most people don't do because they don't know they need to. And it's just uh Yeah, there's it's a wild industry, it's changed so much.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

And oh god, yeah. I mean, so what was it that got you to say, okay? I'm assuming maybe I'm wrong, hopefully I'm wrong, that you did it just like everybody else did it, and then it and it was miserable in the screaming and the fighting and cussing and yelling and threatening and all that. And then you've said, you know what, I'm gonna do it different. Was it like that for you, or did you come out the gate like we're gonna do it this way?

Unlearning The Screamer Playbook

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Oh no, I'm I'm an old school holler scream, my way or the highway. And that that question obviously tells me you have not read my book. Because if you I have not, no, if you'd read the book, that wasn't that question, wouldn't have come up. You would have had some different questions in on along the same lines. But no, I was one of those holler screamer, it's my way or the highway, and that's way that's the way we did it, and it was wrong. Yeah, but we all did it, so it was right. And then we just we learned. I mean, I created a reputation when I was young, and it the worst problem about the reputation I created is I wore it like a badge of honor, and it was not a good reputation. You got to go to the book to see really what it was what it says there. So you can buy that, oh yeah, or I can send you a copy, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

And then uh oh, we'll make sure we put the link in the in the show notes so other people can get it too, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

I just I've been in this thing forever. I've done all types of construction back in the early 90s. I I had the opportunity to work with McCarthy. Before it was McCarthy Brothers, it was it was McCarthy, and I was around when they came up there with their little dude emblem that they have now that their logo. I was part of the okay, part of McCarthy when they designed that thing. That's how long ago that was. So got it. And I was I was just a jerk, and I learned a lot, and I I really didn't understand how bad the business was until probably I'm gonna say a year ago. Oh wow, I I exactly I changed my ways a lot. I mean, I was closer to the guy I am now because it's about the people we don't as we can all say it, we don't build buildings, we build people that build buildings, and that is so true.

Turning Training Notes Into A Book

SPEAKER_01 8:00

And that and I I got that more than a year ago, but it really didn't click until I was I was writing a training program for a company, and God said, No, Dodie, this isn't a training program, this is a book. So I didn't know to write a book, I set out to write training, and God said, No, there's more to this. And that's really the when I started to understand, I mean, like all the old guys, we did stuff, we were taught how to do stuff, and nobody they taught us the steps, but they never told us why we take this step and then that step. So when the things get tight, the job gets jammed, we all rely on our own personality, everybody's got a different one, so then we all react differently. And that's right now the biggest issue with superintendents in our in construction, is we all just fell back on personality.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yes, yes, well, and it's natural. I mean, that's kind of the thing, right? Is we've I don't know why. I mean, I think I know why, because it it feels right. I love what you said. We all did it so it was right, because that was the norm, not necessarily the appropriate thing to do, but it was the accepted modus operandi for anybody. You wouldn't be judged. Actually, you would be made fun of if you were respectful and nice and tolerant and nurturing, right? Like, you've been a little three, yes, 100%. Um, but we we have a lot of very technically proficient professionals in the industry, absolutely, and we put zero emphasis on the human stuff, like the people, like people, people having a personal life, people having health, right? Like these kinds of things that are we just kind of pretend as if it's not a factor. And Jody, I know you know, like if life sucks at home, guess what? I am not gonna be optimal at work. And if life sucks at work, guess what? You're not gonna be optimal at home, so you can't, and this is me being a total hypocrite, you can't leave work at work and leave home at home, right? Because I used to be similarly, Jody, like I was the sub that everybody hated. They wanted me on their job because we could get things done, but I was gonna make your damn life miserable because I wanted to win because I was a superintendent for TD, so we're mechanical contractor, right? Plumbing, piping sheet metal. So I would flood the job with sheet metal as soon as the floor was available. And of course, everybody was pissed, but the reason I did it was because the framers would get mad and walk off, the electricians would get the hell out of the way, and so it gave me runway for my plumbing and pipe fitting to put all our hangers up, and then we would hang the duck and we would be ahead. And of course, there was a lot of stuff I had to take down, and I didn't care, I didn't understand that my success, and you said this earlier, our success was interdependent, like we all win together or lose together, and I was playing the me game. Of course, we're gonna do the LM family member shout-out, and this is another fresh one, fresh off the presses. My sister, Gloria Marie. So if you're on the LinkedIn or even on the Insta, Glowjoy, she left this, she made this post. She says, The meeting I didn't know I needed on Fridays. She said, Thank you, Jesse, for putting together a community of leaders in the industry who can not only help push the industry forward, but also help one another grow. Having a space surrounded by thought leaders, real conversations, and good old-fashioned accountability is something this industry needs more of. Gloria, my sister, many, many thank yous for taking the time to put out such a thoughtful post. And folks, if you're wondering what she's talking about on this Friday morning meeting thing, she's talking about the Construction Leadership Lab, which we just kicked off. We've had our first cycle of calls, and we're going to be having a call every other Friday, every other Saturday. So if you're interested, drop community in the chat. If not, there's a link in there somewhere. Find the link and get on the list so we can get you part of that experience. And y'all know I love attention. So any stars that you leave, if you repost and share the episode, leave a comment, leave a review. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and it gives me an excuse to shout you out in the future. Um, anyways, so it was my identity, right? Like, I that's the way I function now. I'm like, it doesn't have to be that way. Absolutely. We do that, and it's not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

No, we gotta we've gotta work as a team, and your little story reminded me of that part of the lean builder when they brought all the ductwork in early.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Yeah, because they had it all crammed up, yes, stolen away. Yup, yup. Oh my god, so many things I've done. So I guess you you're from the time where if your name, I shouldn't say you, we, if our name made it to the porta potty, that was a success.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

All right, that's a badge of honor, yes, sir. Put my name in there.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah, yeah. And folks, for all you at home that don't know what we're talking about, nobody writes your name in the Porta John in a positive context. It is a couple things they leave in there. Yes, there's a bleed before and after the name, and then it's yes, now they know I'm here. Yeah, okay. So you started working on a training program, and then you got the the signal to say, wait a minute, this is not a training program, this is a book, and I love the title, Built Not Force, and I get it, I understand the idea, right? It's like the optimal thing that we're shooting for. And so did the title come to you first? Did the subject matter? What was the how did it grow in terms of transitioning from the training to the book and the concepts and your experience and all the things?

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Oh gosh. So the the training was laid out like boring training, I'm sure. It was just here here's what we're gonna learn. So here's how we go through it. And the title, I had a different title originally. I don't even know what it was. I don't remember because it didn't matter. But I I as I wrote the book, because everything concludes in the 18th chapter, and the second edition of the book, I totally rewrote the 18th chapter because it was too so it was just the first well, the book went out and it was really kind of it was well received by the community, and the more I thought, the more input, and then the 18th chapter I hated it, hate it, hate it. So we rewrote it, and it's it really finishes the book.

The Five Pillars That Hold Up Work

SPEAKER_01 15:14

But the 18th chapter wasn't part of the original training, it evolved out of writing the book because I mean the book, I mean, this is what it looks like, and I don't know if that's that, but we've got the five pillars we got identity, preparation, flow, standards, and stewardship. And so many people in the industry will talk about preparation, flow, and standards. We're talking quality standards, safety standards, that's what really hit me on this, especially the second edition, is the bookends of the five pillars the identity and the stewardship. Because nobody wants to talk about that because it's there's no money in it, right? But that's where all the money is. But that's where oh my goodness, yes, sir. So and I hate to put this out there, but I'm gonna put it out there. I'm gonna ask you a question because you've been in the business forever, because it's a question I ask everybody in the construction industry that's in the superintendent type role.

Protect Tomorrow’s Work As The Job

SPEAKER_01 16:14

What is the role of a superintendent? And I'm just looking for a sentence because in a moment, you're gonna change that to my description of what a superintendent is.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

I love it. So and and I've answered this question many times for elementary kids, middle school kids, and high school kids. A superintendent intends to do super things. That's my definition of a superintendent.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Okay, I like the spin on that. I like it. It's not a normal, normally it's it's schedule stuff or coordinate this or that, and those are all parts of it. When I talk about a superintendent, my one focus, my one role is to protect tomorrow's work. Oh, okay. Every division I make today has to protect tomorrow. Yeah. Because we've got these guys that are firefighting heroes out there, and they they create the fires, they fix the fire to create more fires to fix the fire, and and there's a I'm the hero, I can do this. Look how good I am. And just a cycle, and the trade partners hate it because they're caught eating it, and it's just it's for lack of planning, it's lack of understanding the identity that we protect tomorrow's work, and involved it that what's involved in that is a hundred percent ownership of everything that goes wrong. I mean, if you messed up on my job, I own it. And until we understand the true identity, we'll never understand how to do the job.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, no, I'm with you. There's a I'll say it this way to all my subcontractor, trade partner, fellow brethren out there, I'm not picking their side, but they are human too. Absolutely. They didn't get any training, they got thrown into a role and said, Here's a budget. Not even they don't even half the time, don't even know care about the budget. Here's a schedule, hurry up. And so you've got all Adam Hoot and I got it had this little short debate of his argument was, well, the trades don't understand how much pressure the superintendent is under. And I said, agreed. Just like the superintendent doesn't understand how much pressure I'm under as a foreman or an installer or a trade superintendent. It's a it's totally we all have this, we all have budget schedule pressure and our pride and egos. We want to perform and deliver all the things. We all have that. So no, we don't appreciate each other's pressure. We're all experiencing the same thing. And so I guess my main point is too many of us get thrown into the thing because we're pretty good at something, or now there's some education and certifications and degree or credentials that are facilitating that. But even before when people came out through the field, you didn't get. I mean, well, let me ask you what classes did you get to figure it all out, Jody, to be a great superintendent and to be an author?

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Well, I would love to be a great superintendent. I haven't got there yet, but I'm working on it. I'm closer than I was. And I'm definitely not an author, I'm a guy that lets God try to take over stuff. So I want God to run the boat, and I'll try to hang on to the rudder and stay in the same lane. Nice. But it's just self-improvement, it's something that we in this construction we have to be involved in that. So many people want to just wait for somebody else to do it for them. Show me the where's the class I sign up for? Where's this? Where's no? If I'm gonna be better, I'm gonna read Jason Schroeder's stuff. I'm gonna I would love to go to his boot camp. If somebody wants to sponsor me, I'd love to go. But I put it out there. So if if we don't try to better ourselves, nobody else will be as invested in us as we are. They won't be more. So if we don't do it and show the initiative, who you're working for is not gonna write a check if you're not willing to do it yourself. And that's that's part of the problem. Communication is with that, as with the whole industry. And I was gave this some thought earlier today, and I wrote a post that's coming out in a couple weeks because I try to stay ahead of that stuff. And how technology has helped us, we say, but we forget how to talk to each other. Because oh, I'm gonna just send a text. Let me write an email. I don't did you call him, did you talk to him? Oh, yeah, I talked to him. No, that's a text, that's not talking. I mean, if we can't have dialogue and understanding, and that that breakdown gets worse, so now we're just digging a deeper hole, and it just and these younger kids, oh, they're tech wizards. Well, I love technology, but I gotta get out in the field, I've got to do my job. I've I can't do it from the the screen. And I I'll embrace it. I was a paper guy for a long time, but I'm the first one out there with the iPad running through ProCore trying to make sure it's up to date, and I'm very much a pain to the tech IT guys because I say if ProCore is gonna be our gospel, it better be right.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Oh, yeah, it's good. Oh, I didn't get that in there.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

I didn't do that. Well, if you didn't do it, then it's not my gospel, and I can't tell my trade partners that this is what we live and die by because it's not now. So technology piece is such a either yes or no. We get we can't go halfway on any of it, and everybody try every people to try to go halfway all the time. And I know I'm running in circles because that's What I do. That's this ADD unmedicated brain.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yes, sir. No, we're good, man. This is perfect. I mean, there's a couple things we've touched on the idea of ownership, so I'm gonna go there.

Ownership With Authority And The Why

SPEAKER_00 22:12

But I have a story about this technology and communication thing that we'll come back to. Okay. Because it's funny, it's just gonna reinforce what you said. But the the idea of ownership. So when you're talking about the book ends up in the the idea of your framework, you talked about ownership. When we talk about when you defined what a superintendent is, you are talking about ownership. And you've mentioned the idea of us the investing in ourselves so that we can signal to the decision makers to invest in us, also. It there the the red line is ownership. And maybe here's the question how do you teach that? Because I know I learned it, but I've I learned it while I was sitting in rehab, like for real, inpatient rehab, because I was wrestling with my addiction again in the state of Texas really is what motivated me to do that, and it finally clicked for me. The situation, the these negative consequences that I'm living in are a result of the decisions I'm making and how I'm responding to things. I've got to take ownership for how I respond. So how do you how do we help people understand the value of taking ownership of their part in the things?

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Man, we're going deep here. I like it. I like it. Well, my instant short-term quick answer is Jesus. I mean, that's the way it's that's the way it's it's got us. I mean, for me, owning up and re realizing that I'm not the end all be all, because there was a time in my life where I thought I was it. I mean, I made the statement if there's a God, I am it. And that's the way my point, that's where I ran my life. So until I personally, until I could understand that I'm not it, there's some authority higher than me, and there might not be there's one true higher than me, but when we get on a job site, there's other authorities that are higher than me. And I'm higher than people. So until we understand the hierarchy, and that's in the identity piece of the book, we get into that, and we and you have to understand as a superintendent, no matter what it is, if it happens inside that fence, you own it. Plain and simple. Yes, you own it. Yes, and a lot of companies, I hear, don't want to give people the authority to go with the responsibility. And if you don't have the authority that goes with the responsibility, then it's it's hard to own. So I'm gonna let people off the hook a little on ownership there. But as we get better at communicating with our trade partners and they see a mutual respect, or they don't have to respect me, I'm gonna respect them, and that'll build the mutual respect. Then they can do the buy-in and they'll take ownership for their piece. But as a super the only way to teach young guys that is to model it and explain the why. That's the big piece that when I was writing the book or retraining, when actually when I was writing the book after the training was evolved, is we nobody ever explained the why we did things. It was always here's step one, step two, step three, but it wasn't here's why we do this, because if this doesn't happen, here's the snowball effect that's gonna happen over here. So just here's the steps based on my personality. This is how I do it. And when the job goes south and the schedule gets jacked up, or trade partners don't show up, or material doesn't deliver and panic happens, nobody if you don't know the why, you can't control it. Right. So most people say, I need more manpower, I push, push, push. When I talk about manpower, if I don't say this, I'm gonna lose it because that's the way my mind works. So people always say, We need more men, we need more men. And I I tell the young guys, if you think you need more men and you're gonna go to your foreman or super your trade partner, you need to tell him where you think he needs more men and why he needs more men, not just more bodies, because more bodies doesn't fix it, it stacks up and nobody can work efficiently. So you better really have your game together and a plan that you can sell and they can buy into on why they need more men. Because that's the normal push is just give me more bodies. That goes after the finances. We haven't got money for more bodies. We can't just throw bodies at it. One of the things I've said for years is I'm there to help the trade partner make more money. That's my job. Oh, yeah. So you gotta realize it. I mean, the superintendent is the only guy, I'm gonna say the only as in the the GCT, that has to understand how everything goes together. The mechanical guy knows how his stuff fits, the electrical guy knows how his stuff, the plumbing guy, the fire sprinkler, the pneumatic tube, they all know their pieces, but the superintendent has to see it all integrating. And before BEM, that was a lot different.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Oh, yeah. You used to admit, let me guess. Do you remember? Did you ever have a light box where you had the fluorescent overlays? Yeah, I remember those days. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

We got through it, and then the pneumatic tube guy would come in and say, Hey, don't forget about me, and he'd screw the whole feeling up.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Yeah, oh my goodness. Oh, so much good stuff. I mean, there's a couple things I think you when you mention like you want to help this the trade partners make money. I know for a fact, and I'm do you know, Jody, about the dummy tax? No, I don't know. So dummy tax. I don't know if any any of the

The Dummy Tax And Trade Performance

SPEAKER_00 28:59

subs or trades out there will admit to this, but I know we charge a dummy tax, or at least I did. And so here's what's the dummy tax. I'd get at the time, at one part of my career, I was in charge of staffing all our projects, and I'd be involved in pre-construction and a bunch of stuff, right? Training, all kinds of stuff. And they'd say, Hey Jess, we want to go after this job and we want to go at it aggressive. We want to give it a 0.80 labor multiplier, which is a 20% discount on labor. It's a tenant finish out, the structure's already up, we're just gonna finish the thing out, the guts are there, we're just build it out. My first question was always who's doing it? Who are we going after this with? And they would name the GC. I'm like, okay, which PM and superintendent are they pitching? And based on who they said it was, they were either gonna get the dummy tax or they were gonna get preferred performance. Meaning, if they were the screamers, yellers, threateners that they couldn't organize their freaking lunchbox, dummy tax. I'm like, uh-uh, we need to go to 1.2 because we're gonna be scraping and crawl clawing for every penny of margin because those fools cannot organize a project. Now, if it was Joanne and the other team, hell, yeah, let's go point. We'll make money with them, and and they'll get my better team because I know I can make money with them. The other clowns out there, you're getting the C and D team because I'm not gonna make money with you anyway. Makes sense. Makes sense, and so I mean, another way to look at it, maybe a positive way to look at it for the superintendents out there is if you when you help your trades make money, you will get preferred pricing and preferred performance from your trades all the time, every time. And when you do that long enough, you start being able to pass those savings on to your clients, which then helps you gain more market share. It only you said it earlier, right? It's the it because it's not money, except that it's all the money. If you treat people with respect and tap into their expertise and their ideas and make production happen, you are gonna everybody's gonna win. Absolutely. Like I've seen it happen. One other point, and I'm really curious because you've you've been you've been at it for a while. I've you said construction has changed dramatically, and I know it has, right? I remember when lasers were not a thing, all we had was plumb bombs. But I feel like right now there's a perfect storm happening, and it's not a good one, but I think the outcome of it is gonna be phenomenal for our industry. And so we have the exodus, right? All the all the boomers are leaving the industry. We have the epidemic, suicide, substance abuse bigger, louder than it's ever been before. We have more damn work going on than ever before. I mean, I'm sure you've heard these data centers where there's thousands of people on one job site. Right. And anybody can make money selling pictures of their feet on their internet from home. So we don't have to put up with somebody screaming and yelling at me all day long. And I think the combination of those four things, you can't throw money at it anymore. You can't just add, there's no more people to add. So we have to treat people differently and we have to invest in them. That's my theory. What do you think about that, Jody?

SPEAKER_01 32:49

I've been harping training forever. Every young guy I talk to, that if they're on with a small or even a mid-sized contractor, it's you want a McCarthy, a Bechtel, a Gil Bain, WL Jordan. One of the big guys that invests in their people because they know that's what it takes to keep them. Or hence the world. I mean, those the training programs that these big boys put together, they're real. Some are better than others, but they all they all understand that if they don't invest in their people, the people are gonna leave because the growth is there. If you don't grow your career, I mean you can get left behind. There's some really great opportunities for young guys if they're not chasing the buck to get on with a company that'll train them and they can spend five years and then write their own ticket because they did the hard part. But so many that are working for the big salary today.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna judge because me too, but but like reality is different, right? All right, so I love this, man. Now we touched on technology a little while ago, and this is hilarious. I got a call from a uh we'll say a prospect. Somebody was looking for consulting and for help on stuff. And my number, I'm like, yeah, yeah. So we're holding, let me try them first.

Listening Is The Real Technology

SPEAKER_00 34:16

And I said, okay, like what are we talking about? I was like, man, we're looking for some technology for our our daily huddles and our weekly meetings. And I'm like, okay, but what's the problem? I understand that you want some technology for the huddle. Is it because it's a big giant job side and you're losing time for people traveling? Da-da-da-da-da. And they're like, No, man, no, there's no communication. Nobody's, we're getting together, but nobody's listening. No book, there's no follow-through, there's no execution. And I said, Ah, I got the perfect technology for you. And oh my god, I knew you would. I was like, Man, it's an ancient technology that's kind of coming back in fashion. And they said, What is it? I said, listening. It's our ears. Somebody needs to start listening. Let me guess. Everybody, you're getting in these huddles, and everybody's yelling and pointing fingers and barking and complaining, and yeah, and somebody's writing 10% of whatever's been said down on the whiteboard or like well, you know, we do it on team, so it's all in the chat. Oh, yeah, nobody's listening, man. There's not an app for that. You gotta listen, make your mouth move less, ask more questions, understand what they're going through, and then serve the people. Do you think I let them astray? Uh uh, and just in case anybody's wondering, they did not, we didn't go any further. They're like, Okay, thanks. I don't know if it's because I gave them the answer or because they just thought I was a butthead for that answer. What do you think? Was that good advice? Some people don't want to hear the truth.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

We we all, and I'm guilty, we all listen to reply, we don't listen to understand, and people just talk so much, and and then you throw in the barrier of not being able to understand. I mean, I bilingual superintendents, I think right off the get-go, are worth at least 10 grand a year more, just boom.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Oh, easy.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

We lose so much in translation, and I'm too old to learn Spanish. I'm just not gonna do it. I just put my hands on it. I'm not gonna do it. So, I would like somebody to invent a live translator for an earbud that doesn't take a phone app. So if somebody out there is listening, you can do that because we they all you can use a phone app if we're one-on-one, and you can hold the phone there and you can take the time it takes. But if I'm walking the job, I would like to just be able to hear the conversations. I'd like to hear the foreman giving direction to his crew and know that it got translated down through the line correctly. Instead of after I walk through and I come back through that same area two hours later and they've been working for two hours and it's wrong. If I'd understood when they were talking about it, we wouldn't have wasted two hours. So that's a that's a huge issue that we have in the industry. And yeah, I am not smart enough to solve that one. Somebody is, but they just don't want to because then they can't use if you don't need the phone, I'm sure that costs somebody money.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

It does cost money. Well, and here's the thing, right? Like I feel you in that we haven't figured out how to do that with the people that speak English. True, true. Well, we make it some progress if we just did it with all the English speaking people.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Well, I'm so visual. I write, I mean, there's pictures of everything. When you walk in my job trailer, yeah, if you don't in 30 seconds, if you don't understand what's going on on that job, I messed up because I need that because I like that. Yes, I'm gonna forget what's going on on the job if it's not written, it has to be written down, otherwise it's gone. So we need to take so when we're disseminating information to the crews, the huddles are a tough one. Probably what these people really want for software, they want a software that they can just push play and it does the huddle for them so they don't have to show up.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Yes, yes. Oh my god, yes, there's still work that has to be done, right? I'm I'm sure you've come across the last planner system and all these other things. Ask me, people ask me all the time which systems best? Should we do tech planning? Should we do last planner? Should we do CPM? And I'm like, it doesn't matter, they're all perfect systems until you put people in them. Because people are people. I've seen them all work very well, and I've also seen them all weaponized to the point that it's a miserable experience for everybody. Absolutely. So there's no one that that is like the silver bullet, it comes down to the way people treat each other. Do they surface problems? How do the leaders, the decision makers, respond to problems? At the core, those two behaviors will make a massive flow or not. Because if I bring a problem to, and I've done this, I bring a problem to the superintendent and he screams and yells at me and says, I don't want to hear your excuse. Actually, I did this, it was a federal project here in San Antonio, and I'm looking at the drawings. We're running chill water, putting a whole new air chill water system, air handlers, and the whole thing. It didn't have it because it was an old historic building. I took the job over for another superintendent that, anyways, I took it over. Um, and I'm looking at the drawings and I'm like, where's the chiller? There's no chiller. The the chill water feed were coming from the central plant. I'm like, okay, well, where's the routing

Surface Problems And Build Trust

SPEAKER_00 39:50

for the pipe? Where's the central plant? It was nowhere on the drawings. So day one, Jody, I go to the trailer, introduce myself, and I say, hey man, there's an issue. Maybe I'll have it, but I can't find the feed of the chill water system to the building. And we kind of need that if we're gonna have conditioned air in whatever day. His first response was, I knew they were gonna give me another damn crybaby. I don't have time for your crap. I said, Oh, that's how this is gonna be. Okay, no problem. My contract is five foot outside the building, the rest is your problem. And Jody, guess what happened? We didn't have chill water when we needed it, and it was my fault. So, my point is I surfaced the problem. Ding dong twisted it up on me. So, guess what? I didn't bring any more problems to him. Exactly, just let it explode. Now, if he would have said, dude, thank you for that, let me find out. I'd say, Oh, I have a partner here, I can surface problems. He's gonna clear the way, make green lights for us to install the protect tomorrow's work to steal your quote, things would have been fine. Now, that behavior of surfacing a problem and then clearing the way works really well in any system. I mean, that's my hypothesis because I haven't tried every single one, but that's what I think. And I'm uh I'm assuming you've come to a similar conclusion, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Absolutely. And one of the things that I say, because I say a lot, you can tell, that we've got to trust these each other enough to disagree and even argue. Yes. If we can't have a heated discussion and come out the other side saying, here's our solution, thanks for thanks for this, then we've done it wrong. We have to have that level of trust.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

And the example you and Adam had a disagreement, it didn't get heated, I'm sure, but it was but there's enough trust to know it's just talking about what we're talking about, it's not a personal thing. And a lot of that stuff becomes personal in construction because it gets put off. We walk so we'll walk by something that's wrong. We we see it, so the foreman says, Yeah, that must be good. He saw it and didn't say anything. And three weeks later we come back and say, Oh, by the way, this work over here is no good. So now that's a personal thing. There's zero trust. Any trust that was there is gone. So we've just created just and we just keep doing this in the industry to ourselves. We just keep shoving this stuff down our throat, and then we wonder why we create all these firefighting heroes. And yeah, I'm done being a firefighting hero. And the standard that we've got in Built Not Force, laying out those five pillars, I can teach, I can walk through that with a young guy, and he can say, Oh, that's it. I under I get it. He may not understand the construction, but if he understands his job and the process he's gonna go through, now he when I'm off the job and there's a disaster, okay. Rule one, protect tomorrow's work. This guy wants to do that, that doesn't protect tomorrow's work. No. And that's that's a hard working construction. No. I mean, oh yeah, I mean, you gotta stop long enough to understand what the issue is. You don't just here's a problem, boop, there's a solution. Yeah, it may be a solution, but where's it go?

SPEAKER_00 43:23

One of the the third, second, and third order consequences of that solution. I've made many of those. So, Joe, like you help again. I gotta applaud you for the investment that you're making and sharing your experience because it was hard-earned. We need more people to do that. You're doing you wrote the book and you're helping coaching. So, what does it feel to give people your formula and then watch them have a higher quality of life as a result of their interaction

Coaching Young Supers For The Long Run

SPEAKER_00 43:56

with you? How fun is that?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

That is that is absolutely the most one of the most exciting things, other than watching a one of the grandbabies take their first step. I mean, that it all ranks up there. There was a actually, even before I wrote the book, so I probably knew a little of this in my brain, but down in Florida, I was working with this 23-year-old kid, a couple of years in the business. So we I don't remember who we worked for, it doesn't really matter, but he had a good grounding. And I was the first, I was general superintendent, so I normally wasn't on jobs, but I I was on this project for a couple months, and we did everything totally off the rails. I mean, there was no box to find. I try not to know where the box is so I don't ever get in it. And we closed down city roads. We moved fences beyond property lines with county and city approvals. And we poured concrete by closing down roads so the infrastructure could all be done without any interruption. But this kid got, I got to spend about three months, and he was just a sponge. He was just because it was hit him and I really with a two on there. He watched every move. I mean, we're pouring, we hadn't poured the first slab, I don't think. And I had a coordination meeting with my plumber electrician and HVAC and concrete guys and frame round how we're going to do this process. And we met for an hour and a half. We broke the building down into areas and did our schedule. And I had my schedule. And I said, What do you guys think? Then we commenced to tear it apart and rebuild a new schedule that everybody bought into. And within three months, I was pulled out of this job about the time we started framing. I guess we were halfway through framing the first building. And I left this 23-year-old guy as the lead super on this project. There were it was nice multi-family, five buildings plus a clubhouse. And he ran it. I'd stopped in every week doing my thing, but I mean, this kid, I mean, just to watch him, and he'd call me with questions, and that just to see that he could see it work, and it was just that. I mean, he could, I mean, man, we need more of these guys that want it, and then give me the ability to work with him. And he was bilingual, so that made it fantastic, even better, because he could really disseminate it down through, and it was just a real satisfying time. And there's just this young kid is on a trajectory now that is just fantastic. He left that company, we probably leave for somebody else at such a young age, and that just is cool. But and then I also got some guys that are super green. We just did interns where I'm at now to talk through some of this stuff with the interns and give them a book. And yeah, here's a place to start because then you have a better understanding. So that just and I'll talk about it forever. People are gonna shut me down. I'm just it's a passion.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

I it's important, Jody. I mean, we need that here's the beautiful, yeah. You know this, right? The disappointing part is we don't get to, for me anyways, I don't get to see the ripples after, right? So you've impacted this young man. You know how you came up, I know how I came up. And most of the like the early part of my career, I ruined a lot of people. I taught them a way that where they were effective. My way was effective. I could make budget, I could make money, but people hated me, and I didn't like me either. And so personally, my life was a disaster. And so you've saved him from that. And he's going to carry that forward. He's not going to be abusing and minimizing and neglecting other trade partners. He's gonna have the energy and the focus to be a good brother, husband, son, etc., because he's not living in the misery of being a butthead. Because that like it's miserable. I mean, it was taxing on me. I was great at it, but I didn't like myself. But it was the only I I gotta put my hat on, and okay, it's time to go be a jerk. And I didn't like it, but I did it every day. It was the only way I knew. So you've saved him from that, and so generations like it's gonna have generational impact. So I applaud you for doing that and and keep doing it till people say, Okay, that's enough. I'm done. Okay, if you want more, come back. We did it, we really need it.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

I love affecting people that way, it's just it's just a cool feeling.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned earlier you've seen some changes in construction. What are the profound changes that you didn't expect? That some of them that you've observed

Tech Speed And The Expectation Trap

SPEAKER_00 48:49

along the way.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

The biggest change. I mean, because I remember when the fax machine came out and you had to put it on the printer because thermal imaging went away. So that was like awesome. Oh, I can get my stuff in the office. Yeah, I mean, technology is absolutely the biggest change in construction. I mean, without a doubt, but with that, the expectation that we jump as fast as technology moves, and that doesn't work. And that's that's probably the biggest downfall is and that's part of what we got we have to control with expectations because the worst expectations are the unknown ones.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, right? It the information flows light years faster than it used to. I remember fax machines in the job trailer, and then pagers, and then Nextel or the box, the box, what do you call it? Cell phone that had a box.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

The bag phone, the bag phone, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

The bag phones, and then Nextel, right? So we've been able to see this, and it's okay. The information, rather, I'll say it this way: some degree of information can be transferred rapidly now. But the expectation is that it's complete and it's timely now because it can be delivered so quickly, it's never complete. Right. Because I'll get you the update and the revision tomorrow, right? I'm still working. Well, just finish it. Anyways, and so now, okay, now you have the information that used to take a few days to get out. Now it's instant. So you should be able to go execute and do that thing instantly. It's like, no, no, no, no. We're working a plan today. We had today planned. This is new information that needs to be integrated into the planned, not today. So, yeah, it's oh my god, it it's I kind of wish we were back to the pagers and the fax machine days because it felt like we were making better decisions back then with better information. I don't know. That's just me talking smack.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

I don't know for sure, but uh you you talk about information, and that brings us to the drawings and the quality of our documents that we build from, and everybody bashes the designers. These designers stink, they don't they don't do it right. But it really comes down to what the owner willing is willing to pay for. Yes, the owner says, I want what we used to call design development drawings. Now those are just permitted and construction documents.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

We figured out, yes, and we can figure it out. Now, here's the other thing, and this might rub, I know it's rubbed some people wrong. As a subcontractor, there were specific GCs that I complained about here in the San Antonio market. And then I got to a point in my career where I had a little more influence about whether we were gonna how much work we were gonna do with them. And I know there were times where I'm like, well, yeah, we need we're so we're X amount away from our annual revenue target. We need the project, we got to keep people busy. But I think it's the same for general contracts actually. When I worked on the general contractor side, I got to see, oh, they're human beings too. They got the same freaking problems we did on the subcontract. Damn, okay. But so when we're working with the client that forces us to deviate from our core values, what we do largely in construction is complain about it. But we're the creators of our own problem. Like, why not say no? No, we can't do it in that time frame. No, we're not gonna do it under those conditions, and so it's kind of yes, okay, there's some gaps, but when we keep saying yes, it's kind of our fault. I mean, am I am I being too rigid here?

SPEAKER_01 53:11

No, I mean, the the superintendents are learning fire fighting from the office. I mean, it's a part it's a sustainable thing. Yeah, that's ridiculous. We can't do it. Oh, sure, we can do that.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Yeah, I had a boss. Oh, he was so off, he was a huge mentor, made a big impact in my life. And we were arguing. I was arguing, I should say we, I was fighting with the project manager and the GC and the BIM team. I was fighting everybody. And so they brought him in because they wanted me off the job. And so we sat down, and I remember he just super cool and super calm. He's like, look, guys, we all know that this schedule sucks. And it was a it was it was a little piece of new construction and tying into an existing building. And so the coordination of the tying in was a disaster. Uh, and we couldn't get the information, we couldn't model, blah la. And that was my gripe because the schedule kept moving, right? We were supposed to like can't start because and he says, he saw me getting ruffled. He's like, Jess, chill out. He talks to the PX and everybody said, Look, guys, I know there ain't a single one of us in here that signed the contract that our company signed us up for. Somebody with really shiny shoes signed us up for this. So we're all just gonna have to take a bite out of this poo-poo sandwich and figure it out. And I remember I was like, damn it, now I can't fight anymore. We were all trying to win a game that somebody else signed us up for that was a really bad game. But when he said it the way he said it, everybody in the room was like, you know what? Yeah, nobody in here, we're all under the same conditions. Let's stop finger pointing and fighting and let's start identifying, okay, what are the what can you do? What can't you do? How long, how much runway do you have before we have to have this decision, before it impacts putting work in place? Once we started having those conversations, man, it started, it wasn't great, but it smoothed things out and back to the ownership idea, right? It's like, hey, look, we didn't sign up for this, but here we are. Are we gonna fight or are we gonna figure it out? And we have halfway figured it out. We got it done. I know that.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

There's always a way to get it done, and most people are happy at the end and happy it's over at least.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, the next plan was like, let's not do work with on that facility because we know what we're getting into. Now we know, don't do it again. Um, oh my goodness, Jody, this was awesome. I have so first I want to make sure if people for the people that want to connect with you and tap into more of your wisdom, where should we send them?

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Oh gosh, probably

How To Connect And Closing Promise

SPEAKER_01 56:04

my email. I'm still working on my website. If anybody out there wants to build a website, I need I battled my issue with a technology issue. So but if email to jody at builtnot force.com. All right, that's an easy email.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

Good, good. We'll make sure we have it in the show notes. You can hit them up. The book is, I'm assuming it's available on Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

It's available on Amazon. Yep. Perfect. And there's also a companion workbook that goes with it. Oh the workbook looks has the old cover on it, not the new one. Because I haven't got around to it, but it it works well. So yeah, yeah. If people want to beautiful, there you go. Indulge on their own, they can study. It's pretty involved, so it's it works well.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Beautiful, man. And I applaud you for putting that out there because we need it. We need we need it. Now, are you ready for the grand slam question, Mr. Jody? I am absolutely ready. I love it. Okay, and I'm excited about your answer because one, you've got massive, massive years of experience. Two, and I gotta applaud you again for this. You didn't let it sour you. I mean, you're a fun, I think you and I could hang out and talk forever. You're a fun, easygoing, forward-thinking, high-energy human being. And and construction squeezes that out of so many people. You've committed to contribute your experience for the benefit of others, for the benefit of the industry. So there's just a lot of really beautiful things about you, Jody, that I want to honor, but also kind of get me excited about what your answer is gonna be. So here's the question: What is the promise you are intended to be?

SPEAKER_01 58:04

I can give my quick answer and to honor God in everything I do. That's the that's the quick answer because that's where my life is focused, and that's first and foremost, which shapes how I do everything. But out of that, it has to evolve, and it's I'm a legacy guy now. It's a legacy for how I deal with God, how I deal with my family, and then how I deal with my work community, because that's so important. Um what I can do to grow people, to help them learn more about Jesus, because that is I share Jesus with everybody that comes on my job site. So it's it's who I am, it's what you get. I don't if you don't like it, that's yours and Jesus' problem, not mine. So yeah. But as I go through every day and I run through my filters of God as the centerpiece of my life, and everything evolves out from that, that directs me on how I communicate with my family and the workers, and I rij want to leave so much more because we were given garbage in comparison to what we could have gotten, but we got the best they had, and the best we have has changed so much, and we're it's a we build people, not buildings, and that's really the key to the whole deal is that relationships. And I worked with somebody five or six years ago, and she was pretty adamant that Jody, you're not soft enough, you need to be more about the people. I mean, that was five years ago. So I'm a work in progress, still always will be, but I'm so much better than I was.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

Ten, four. Man, Joe, I knew it. Mic drop, beautiful response. I thank you, Jody, for being so open and forthright about your beliefs and and what you're doing here, because we need it. Did you have fun?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

I had a blast. This was excellent. I mean, for someone who's only really been in this space for six months, because that's when I really that's when I let got the book out and started in on LinkedIn getting serious, and it's been a fun ride.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Yeah, you you're knocking it out, man. And I'm happy to be a witness, and and I'm gonna attempt to contribute to your path and making that continue forward because we need a whole lot of it, man. Thank you, Jody.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Thank you so much for your time.