The Human Side of Construction Law with Megan Shapiro

0:00 Listen, I love suing insurance carriers because of how much they screw over their own clients. It's ridiculous. So I get real mad when people are like, oh, risk is insurance. You must be an insurance. I'm like, I am absolutely not. So, because my whole approach, you nailed it on the head. I've been litigating for almost 15 years now, and I'm sitting here going, like, especially with my long-term clients, I've been with you long enough now. If we start learning some of these lessons and applying them on the front end, we can avoid litigation altogether, or, because you can't always avoid litigation in construction, we all know that. When we end up in litigation, we'll be in a better position. We'll have all the documentation we need.

0:41 So 100%. My entire system, my framework, aim for higher profits, it all comes from it is informed by the lessons I have learned from litigating this shit on the back end for 15 years. What is going on, LM family members? I have a super, super awesome guest today, Miss Megan Shapiro Esquire, which I like to say that because it sounds extra, extra fancy. If you're like out there in the world and could benefit from a better understanding about managing your risk, specifically in the construction space, Megan is your human being.

1:26 She is the risk expert, so much, and she's so generous. Like she lets me use risk in my post without what do they call those things? Without, I don't get any call to court for stealing her word there. I don't know if that's really her word, but Megan's awesome. You're gonna get to know her. She got a whole lot going on. She got an online course, she's a practicing attorney in California. I've heard some of your live streams, Megan, talking about trades. And I was like, oh damn, like you really have a deep, deep understanding or maybe interaction with trade professionals and their side, their experience with litigation as it relates to law. And so we're gonna get to learn about her path to success because she has the silver bullet, the one answer to have enormous success in your life.

2:13 And we're about to hear that. Let's talk to Miss Megan. Miss Megan, how in the world are you today? I am wonderful. It's Friday, right before a three-day weekend. It doesn't get much better than that. Girl, you know. So I'm holiday blind. I forget about holiday, I don't account for holidays at all. And over and over, I need to get better. I need to find a system. But over and over again, I get in trouble with like clients because I'll schedule a call or a session on a holiday and I did it again. It's like, okay, well, why don't we meet Monday? Like, and like, Jesse, it's it's a holiday. And I swear, I'm like, it's May.

2:54 There's no holidays in May. There's like Memorial Day, dum dum. Like, oh yeah, okay, my bad. Yeah, I kept doing the same thing for for whatever reason. This Memorial Day was like, I had a complete blind spot, and I also kept trying to schedule things. And so you you can't see it on my big wall size calendar behind me. You can't see May. But I finally had to put like a big X over the day because I kept trying to schedule stuff. And people were like, no, no. No, Megan, we don't want to do that. We don't want you, might want to work. We don't. That's so awesome. All right. So you are an attorney. That's no small thing.

3:35 And I don't want to get hyper-anchored on that yet. What I really think the LM family wants to know is like, what are the juicy, awesome, magical things that they need to know about you? Ooh, um, well, I would say, first of all, I am genuinely super passionate about risk management. It is it is genuine. It's not like a marketing ploy or some business strategy. I I had a I had a call earlier today with somebody who was like, everybody's in this space. You have a lot of competitors. And I was like, do I though? Do I really have a lot of competitors? Like, do are they really actually passionate about proactive risk management for construction companies?

4:19 I'm not sure I buy that. So that's one thing. It is truly, genuinely a passion project for me. So that's that's a big thing. I like to say that I fell into construction law, and then I fell in love with construction law. And then I literally fell in love because I met my husband, who is a currently he is a mechanical superintendent, but he used to work for one of my clients, which is how we met. So we have a construction love story, which is kind of fun. And let's see, one other fun fact unrelated. I am super into, I don't share this with many people, but Jesse does already know this. I'm super into very woo things. I'm like big into astrology. I'm big, I'm wearing a lot of crystals today.

5:01 I'm very into the big into crystals. I love human design. I'm super into sort of like the woo side of things. And I don't talk about it much because it doesn't really mesh with construction, but you asked me for fun facts. I am who I am. I love thank you for that because you know I'm gonna get nosy about it. So here's I'll tell you in my head, like I know you you have an open mind, but now you're talking crystals. I'm like, oh, that's really interesting. Yeah. In my head, there's a clash between the thinking style, I'll say style, to practice law and crystals. Now, we're not just talking crystals here, right?

5:42 We're talking a whole bunch of other stuff. How do you does that how does how do you make that, how do you reconcile that? Yeah, so I think in two ways. One, I think I somewhat disagree with your premise that law is very opposite of the sort of metaphysical space. Okay. Law is very much an art. It really is. I mean, like they call it practicing law for a reason, right? We are practicing every day. There are certain fundamental black letter laws, rules, all of the things that we have to play by. But to me, the thing I love the most about being a construction attorney is in the strategy.

6:26 It really is in like working with my clients to strategize. And strategy is all art, right? Like there's no playbook for strategy. And so I don't see a disconnect there. But also, my second reason is why not hedge my bets? I mean, I don't know, right? I mean, I don't know what's I haven't, you know, I don't know what's after this life. I don't know what's beyond. Like, I don't know. So it would be very arrogant of me to pretend that I've got those answers and to just be like, I'm gonna take this one path. I have to just go with what feels aligned for me. And I have been like, I've been a woo girl since I was a little kid.

7:06 Like really, yeah. When I like when my parents would take me to like Barnes and Noble when I was like a kid, I would immediately like make a beeline for like the tarot card section, the witch. Like, I was like, I've been like this since I was a little kid, way before I was a lawyer, even though I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer. So they always were like, I've always had both of those things in me since I was little. And so to me, it doesn't feel anachronistic, I guess is really what it comes down to. Because like I've always wanted to be a lawyer, I've always been interested in the woo side of things, and so there's no contradiction for me. I feel it, I feel it a hundred percent. Because similarly, I'm I mean, my work is process improvement, technically, right?

7:47 That's the job, that's what I get paid to do. But everything I talk about is about people and relationships and vulnerability. And people are like, well, that that doesn't, I was like, but absolutely it does. And similar, like kind of very, very similar. I love what that you said. Like, I want to hedge my bets because I was talking to somebody the other day, and like it was when I said it, I could see like, oh, that didn't land well with them. Well, we're talking about social media and what do I like? Primarily I post on LinkedIn, and I also post on TikTok and Facebook and Instagram, and they're like, TikTok, like why TikTok? And I'm like, Well, it's it's kind of like praying, like uh it's not gonna hurt anything, and then why not?

8:31 And in the moment, I it to me it made up it was a perfectly logical association, yeah, except that it undermines people's faith in religion. Oh, oh, I guess it does technically. I didn't take it that way either. I think we're we're more on the same wavelength on that. I didn't take it that way, yeah. Nor did I mean it that way when I made that comparison, right? Right, no, totally, but again, you know, people have certain attachments, and I try to when I rewind, play the replay, rather, I don't necessarily realize what I've said until I see the reaction on somebody's face, and then I'm like, oh, I said something dumb. Yeah.

9:11 Let me let me let me edit that now. So, okay, you mentioned since you were a young lady, woo-woo and law, you knew. Where did that, where do you think that came from? The law part or the woo-woo part? Let's start with the law and then the woo-woo. You know, I'm not sure. I really because it's like I remember when I was in kindergarten, I wanted to be a geologist randomly. I had like a rock tumbler. Remember rock tumblers, they're very popular in the 80s. And maybe that's the maybe that's why I like crystals so much now, right? I don't know. But and then I had a brief stint in like first grade of wanting to be a teacher, which is consistent with now how I also teach.

9:53 We didn't talk about that, but I do teach as well. And then it was law, and I don't even remember like when or how people ask me that all the time, and I'm like, I wanted to be a lawyer for so long, I don't even remember my own origin story. Wow, I don't I don't I don't know. And then by the time I got to high school, when it was like really sort of like you can really be active in doing actually let me back up. Even in middle school, we had a speech team. We didn't have debate in middle school, but we did have a speech team, a class. And I joined that. And then, but then when I got to high school, I was like, oh, I'm gonna do debate. And then we had mock, we finally got mock trial at my very tiny little school, I think my junior or senior year. So I did that then.

10:33 And then I was like, okay, I mean, like, it was just always the path. I mean, I went straight from high school to college, I went straight from college to law school. When I graduated law school, I decided to get yet another degree in trial advocacy. So it was just always, I don't know, because it was just always the thing. I never had that struggle of like, what do I want to do with my life? I was very blessed in some ways. We want to do the LM shout-out. So I'm gonna shout out my old buddy, good friend, super awesome leader out there in the construction industry, Mr. Buddy Brumley. Buddy took the time to leave this review. Buddy says, follow Jesse as he brings the truth of mistakes made several times and the cost of being a slow learner at some things.

11:20 Yes, that's me. The good, the bad, and the ugly, as he puts it, the learnings and missteps. This book will have you wanting to fuss at him, cry with him, and cheer for him. It's going to help a lot of people. And so that was the review. My buddy, Buddy, left on becoming the promise you are intended to be. Buddy, thank you for taking the time to do that. And for everybody else out there, when you get a chance, you leave a comment, a thumbs up, a star, or whatever, like all those things. I love reading the comments. They they mean a lot to me, and it gives me an excuse to celebrate you on one of the podcasts in the future.

12:02 That's that's a bit, I mean, well, I always knew what I wanted to do with my life, and it was three options. It was bullfighter, clown, or teacher. Yeah, those, yeah, I can see that those three choices. They make complete sense together. Yeah, I'm with you. I just I just haven't got there yet. I'm still working on it. Okay, so so woo-woo came from the magic tumbler. When you were coming up, say middle school, high school time, how did you build your knowledge base in the woo-woo area? Was books, like friends. I imagine like social network was probably a small part of it.

12:43 No, I'm I'm probably older than you think I am. Like Facebook came out when I was a junior or senior in high in college. Sorry, in college. Ah, okay. So I was one of the lucky people, I think lucky, that I didn't have social media when I was like a teenager in those like formative years where you don't want documented history forever of what you did, right? I I'm lucky, I didn't have that, right? Which means I also didn't have the weird pressure that goes along with it and all of the downsides of social media. I didn't have that, thank God. So that hadn't that had zero influence. Like we had AOL, like, right? So we had AOL and Snip Messenger and like chat rooms. So that was like, I guess, like the very beginning, tiptoeing into social media, but it was still within your control.

13:25 You had to be sitting at your computer, we didn't have smartphones, none of that stuff. So none of that was an influence. I I went to Barnes and Noble a lot. Like I've always loved books, I've always loved reading. My parents always fostered that in me. So I'd go to the library, then we would go to our town library. I was like, I grew up in a very small town in southwest Missouri, so I could ride my bike to the library in the summers. I was a free range kid, like most of us were. I'm like free range kid. I love it. Yeah, like it was like we were just like summertime. Guess you're staying home alone this week, this summer, guys. I don't know what to tell. We didn't do summer camps, we didn't do all that. I was a free range kid. So I would ride my bike up to the library. I had my own library card. And then, you know, when I was lucky and on the weekends, my parents would take me to Barnes and Noble a lot, and I would just beeline it for that section.

14:08 And so, yeah, a lot of it came from books, mostly actual literal books, if you can believe it. We still I still have literal books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so cool. So you mentioned your parents. And I, you know, I know we're of the age, and I think the LM family out there is largely of the age of they have kids or they're on the verge of having kids. What role, like, what was the support like from your parents on these two avenues, law and woo-woo? Okay, so I was raised Irish Catholic. So I would say not much support on the woo-woo side, but not any condemnation either. It was just sort of like I don't even really know if my parents really, I mean, like I had like a Ouija board and I bought tarot decks and stuff like that.

14:55 But I think they were just like, whatever, because I was always a good student. I was a good kid and I was a good student. I wasn't getting into trouble, I was getting good grades. So I think my parents kind of had a little bit of like a laissez faire attitude of like, as long as she's doing what she's supposed to be doing, then like let her interests be what they are. So in that way, I guess it kind of was supportive, right? It was like it, and then on the law side, they were incredibly supportive. Like I remember when I would come, so when we would do mock trial and speech and debate tournaments in high school, those were oftentimes that, well, they were always on the weekends, right? Because in high school you can't interfere with your class time. Right. So they'd be on the weekends, and so we'd we would take a bus with our whole team and our coach, and we'd, you know, drive three or four hours away to whatever school was hosting the tournament.

15:38 And my dad would come a lot of the times. He would like drive wherever we were going. Yeah. And then when I got to college, I started doing intercollegiate competitive mock trial, and my team was very good. We went to nationals several times and we competed all across the country. And my dad would take off work. He would literally take days off of work so he could travel and come and be and sit in my little mock trials. I say little because now I do real trials, right? So I'm like, oh, that's so cute. But back then it was my whole world, right? And like I have uh I have one memory. I bet they still have this video. I had gone to a really exciting speech and debate tournament over the weekend, and it was it was one of the rare out-of-town ones.

16:19 This was high school, and it was out of town, so we had like stayed in a hotel as high schoolers with like our coach and stuff. And it was like a big deal, right? So I remember I came home that Sunday and I used to have this like debate box because again, this was like the late 90s, very early 2000s. I graduated high school in 2002. So everything was still paper. We didn't do anything like I didn't, no laptops, no iPads, we didn't do anything electronically, right? So I had this like file, like this file plastic file box. I'm sure you've seen what I'm talking about. Oh, I know exactly what you're doing. Yeah, it had like its little handle. I had decorated it with like I was a huge Hanson fan. If you remember the Hansen fan band, so I decorated it with all my stuff, and it had all of our, I had a partner on, I did, I did team debate.

16:59 So I had a partner. We were best friends and we were partners for all four years of high school. So we had all of our stuff for the for the topic for the year in this debate box. And I was an avid note taker, color-coded notes. No wonder I went to law school. And so I got home from that tournament and we had done really well, and I was amped up and I was so excited, and I like got my box and I sat down on the living room floor. And my parents had like a camcorder. Remember those with like the little video. Well, yeah, an actual like a camcorder with like a tape. And they recorded me, like they recorded the conversation where I was like excitedly telling them about every single I mean, I my poor parents.

17:40 I literally had my notebook out and I went through every note from four rounds of a debate tournament and they recorded the whole thing and they were like actively involved and super engaged and asking questions. And so, so I was very, very lucky. My parents were incredibly and continue to be. I don't, I shouldn't be, I should not be using the past tense at all. My parents are incredibly supportive. My mom actually flew out to California from the Midwest to be here when I got sworn in as an attorney. So after I passed the bar, you have to get sworn in, you take the oath in front of a judge. And my mom flew out to California to be here for that. So my parents have always been incredibly supportive. Incredibly supportive.

18:20 Check it out, hometown nurse. So primo, he's a little bit embarrassed about like asking for some backup, you know, some esquina. And so I want to hit you up and like if if you're digging this content, plus give it on like give it the stars, or or leave a comment, you know. But if you really, really wanna see primo like Girochiflado, like for the reels, hit him up on the socials, homes. Like if you give him a comment in the socials and let him know what you thought about the thing, but he's gonna light up. But only do it if you mean it, because yeah, you already know how primo is. Se cree mucho el cabrón. So if you could do that, if you could leave a comment or a rating or the stars or whatever, that would be cool, man.

19:08 That is that's amazing. There's a bet there's a lot of memories there, uh, a lot of good times. You know, it makes me think, buddy of mine, we were having a conversation. He was talking about one of his kids is playing some sport. I can't remember which one it was, but it wasn't like a traditional sport. And and he's like, you know, I want to support him, but it's the stupidest sport in the world. Like, I don't understand it. I go to the thing, but man, it's like it's painful for me. And I and I never ever considered that, you know, my mom she was super supportive, baseball specifically. She worked a lot, she had to, single mom, right? But she was pretty present.

19:48 It never occurred to me that she would be showing up for something purely for my sake. And then if you zoom out, you think about all the parents in the world, like how many of them are going, you know, driving, hustling people around town and all the things to be at something that they really don't care about, except the fact that their kid is there. Like, that's that's a huge sacrifice. I was never aware of it until just recently. Now, you mentioned that like high school, you're a good student in high school. So I get the feeling that middle school and high school, the pace of that rigor and workload was too slow for you. Am I off? No, you're not off.

20:29 You're spot on. In fact, this will probably come as no surprise to you. My senior year of high school, our school decided to try to like level up again, small town southwest Missouri. So they decided that they were gonna make some changes to the academic programming to try to level up. And so they decided that they were gonna basically do the equivalent of like almost like a master's thesis. So if you wanted to be able to graduate with honors your senior year, outside of being a part of the National Honor Society, then you had to take this advanced English course, which I was taking anyway, and you had to write a 20-page research paper. Then you had to do a presentation to a panel of three of the teachers.

21:10 So they were trying to really mimic this, like, you know. So I took the class, I wrote the paper. It was about Henry VIII and his wives, by the way. It was a very interesting paper. I learned a lot. I love that paper. But I was like, I was so offended at the idea that they were creating what felt to me at the time to be like just busy. Like you're just like, there's no value to us the students for this. You're just trying to make this seem like a bigger deal than it is. Yes. So I refused to do that part of it, even though I was doing all the other, I did all the other stuff, but I was like, on principle alone, I am not gonna graduate with honors because like my GPA qual like I still I was still part of the National Honor Society, so I still had the sash, but like I did not have that one little distinction because I was like, I'm not doing, I'm not jumping through hoops that don't make any sense just for the sake of jumping through hoops.

22:00 I'm not doing it. So yes, you're spot on. I can totally appreciate that because there have been many points in my well say academic career that ended in high school where I really I was like, no, like homework, I didn't do homework because to me, homework is practice, and if I understand this thing that they talked about, why would I practice? So and it wasn't going fast, anyways. My grades were not great. Clearly, I didn't go to law school, no doubt there. I think that's pretty obvious for folks. So, if for for any younglings out there, or even parents of younglings, what pointers do you have for those people that have people in their lives that want to go down this study of law?

22:50 What can what should they be thinking about considering for middle schoolers and high schoolers? Oh, so let me just clarify. Are you asking what the middle schoolers and high schoolers should be considering or what the parents should be considering? Both. Okay. The middle schoolers and high schoolers should be not considering it. And by that, what I mean is I'm not saying don't go to that, I'm not saying don't go to law school, don't be a lawyer. I'm not saying that because I got that advice a lot and I always hate, I roll, I would always roll my ass. And I'm like, I know what I want to do with my life. You're just not listening to me. As a kid, it feels dismissive to be told don't do that, don't think that, right? It's like, I'm the adult, I know better than you.

23:30 Fuck you. No. So for so my advice with middle schoolers and high schoolers is like, do you continue to do the things that you find interesting, explore the different things. I was in the high school play my senior year, for example. I was like the laughing lady in Death of a Salesman. Do you be happy, explore the things you want to explore. If that's the career path you're interested in, great. But like it's there's not really much you need to be doing in middle school and high school for that. Just know that you need to that you're gonna be in school for a long time. I was in school for 27 years. Yeah. Damn. Yeah, but I but I but I just want them to do them and find the things that make them happy and what they're passionate about. For the parents, I would say do your homework about what it's going to entail and maybe have the conversations, start the conversations with your kids.

24:20 Because I think more and more, I mean, everybody talk, we talk all the time about the student loan crisis and and all of that stuff. And it's at this point, unless you're independently wealthy, you're going to have to take out student loans to go to law school because you're now talking about four years of an undergraduate degree first, followed by three years of law school. And so, again, unless you're independently wealthy, that means student loans. And so, from a parent standpoint, you need to start looking at what that looks like. I mean, I've graduated law school in 2009. I've been making student loan payments that whole time. I owe$100,000 more than I borrowed at this point after having been paying my loans.

25:03 Yeah. Right? It's it's a broken system. And if I looked at it from a pure financial standpoint, then I would be saying, do not go to law school. I owe$335,000 in loans right now. Woof. Yeah. I'll never pay it off. I'll I will never be able to pay it all off. I make my payments every month. I'll never be able to pay it off. I'll I'll just have to reach that point where I've paid 25 years of payments and then the government forgives it and I have to pay taxes on the forgiven amount. So like it just is what it is. So if I was looking at it from a pure number standpoint, I would be like, don't do it. Unless you're unless you're gonna go into big law and you're you know you're gonna make a salary that is so high that you'll be able to quickly pay off your loans. Don't do it. That would be, but but that's not helpful advice to kids.

25:44 But a good helpful advice for parents. Parents can understand those processes and those issues and can start figuring out on their end what role they want to play, what guidance they want to offer if they have a kid like me that's like, I'm doing it no matter what, I don't give a shit. My prefrontal cortex isn't developed enough to understand the long-term consequences of this choice that I'm making. So I'm gonna do what I want to do. Right? So, like starting to figure out figure out how you can best guide yours guide your kids if they're on that path, and just support them the best way that you can. Oh, I think that's the freaking amazing advice because yes, like it's I think for some I'll say it this way an observation that I've had of all the people that I've known in my life and and the parents that I know that are raising kids and seeing how their kids acclimate to whatever that is, is when the student is allowed to explore their curiosities, the outcomes in terms of like low trauma, low baggage, low resentment, full like sense of fulfillment and contribution or quality of life is way higher than the opposite.

26:57 Yeah, and so phenomenal advice, Megan. Awesome, and that's free, y'all. That's free. She she just gave that to us. So listen to Megan, because Megan knows. All right. So middle school, high school, went to university, kick butt, national competitions. So you were in law, and like law is not a small thing, it's a big giant thing. And you decided what was what's the con what are the connection points between I want to be a lawyer to focusing on construction and litigation and the things that you're into now? Yeah, so I always knew that I want to do litigation because litigation is the courtroom.

27:40 That's the courtroom side. Like litigation is basically the word that you use to describe lawsuits that go to trial that aren't criminal, right? Everybody knows criminal because that's what's on TV and movies, and that's you know what we it's more interesting, so that's what they show us entertainment-wise. But litigation is just the non-criminal side of that. So I did originally start out in criminal law. I don't think you actually know this about me, Jesse. I did start out in criminal law. Uh I first started doing, we had a clinic at my law school that allowed law students under the supervision of our instructors who were also licensed attorneys, to actually practice. And so I did a clinic where I represented people who had been released on parole, were accused of violating their parole. And so now they were facing revocation to be sent back to jail.

28:23 And I do say jail on purpose because it was the maximum return to custody time was one year. So that's a jail time, not as a prison time. Not a prison. Yep. Yeah. And so at the time, this was like 2008-ish. At the time in California, the state appointed attorneys to those people to represent them. They were in, it was like a public defender, but we were a separate body. Okay. It was a separate entity that was that provided those attorneys, but they were provided as a matter of right by the state. And so I was able to do that. And I got to do like four real hearings with real clients and represent them at the parole revocation hearings. And so I loved it. It was great. So then when I graduated law school, I started doing that as one of the paid panel attorneys representing those parolees.

29:06 But meanwhile, I took a little bit of a deviation, and this is where I paused to think what came first. In my third year of law school, I did that clinic my second year. In my third year of law school, I actually worked for the Sacramento County District Attorney's Office in the traffic court division because the really cool thing, I don't know if they still do this, but at the time, they would let, so we could be, we could become what's called certified law students, which meant that we could actually do trials by ourselves, be the attorney in the trial. And in traffic court at the time, they were just like, here are your cases, go. So I got to try all by myself, like a hundred trials. And I had like an 85% conviction rate. I was like, it was crazy because of traffic court.

29:47 But it was awesome because I got used to like being in front of a judge, talking to a judge, negotiating with opposing attorneys. It was really great. It was an awesome experience. But that was 2008, 2009. We all remember what the economy did. All of the county. Offices went on hiring freezes. So I didn't have a choice to leave criminal. It wasn't an act of decision. It was like none of the Ps are hiring and none of the DAs are hiring. So I got very lucky that I found a solo practitioner who was doing civil litigation, who was looking to hire somebody. And I started working for him while I got that extra degree I mentioned earlier. So even though I graduated law school, I decided to get an advanced degree, a master of laws and trial advocacy at Temple University, which is in Philadelphia, even though I lived in California.

30:31 Oh shoot. Yeah. Yeah. So I was flying cross-country once a month, doing doc trials every weekend. And working back here for him. But because of the law at the time, I was still able to represent parolees. So I was working for him, I was representing parolees as a paid attorney. And then I was getting that extra degree flying back and forth to Philly. So that all wrapped up. The law in California literally changed. The voters decided that parolees did not deserve to have an attorney appointed to them at those types of hearings. Not quite comment on that. It is what it is. They drafted the language on the ballot in a very, in my opinion, deceiving and misleading way.

31:12 They called it a victim's rights bill, which had literally no impact on victims at all. I that's a whole other conversation. I won't be on that path. You and I might have that conversation later, but we don't need to talk about that now. So the law changed. So they were no longer providing attorneys to represent parole's at parole hearings. So then I was doing the civil litigation full-time. That particular attorney, he saw his practice starting to kind of slow down. And he was wonderful in that he said to me, You should start looking for another job. Like so that like I'll keep employing you for as long as I can, but like go start looking because I don't want to end up in a situation where I literally can't pay you anymore and you don't have any other options, which I very much appreciated. Yes, rare. Very rare.

31:53 And so I started interviewing at civil law firms because we still had hiring freezes on the criminal side. And I took my interview at the at my firm that I'm at now, back in this is 2012 now. And I remember I looked at their website at the time, and the website had a ton of typos on it. And I am like a very big grammar person. And so I was like, I was so full of myself. I was like, I'm gonna take the interview because I want the rep, but I am not gonna work for this firm if they can't even have a typo free website. Okay. So like I came in all cocky, like whatever. And my partner now, Frank, he's the one who started the firm back in 1995. He had just come off of a huge trial.

32:34 Like, literally, when I say just come off of, I mean days. So he like the application process had been going on behind the scenes. He wasn't involved at all because he was doing this trial. And they set my interview. It was like his first or second day back in the office after the trial, and he was like, Oh, we got an interview today. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna take this interview. Give me her, give me her info. I'm gonna do it. So he comes in and Frank has a very unique and brash personality. And like me, he's a people love him or hate him, right? He's very polarizing. I had tend to have that effect on people too. So he and I hit it off immediately in the interview, like immediately. And so I was like, oh man, I got I'm gonna definitely end up having to take this job. So the rest is history.

33:15 I came to the firm to get to your question about construction. Sorry for being so long-winded. Edit what you just want to do. No, it's perfect. Yeah, this is good. But to so when I started at the firm, they had a they had a small construction practice, much smaller than it is now, representing a handful of subcontractors that they had represented for years and years and years. They had a defect litigation portfolio, and the attorneys in the firm all hated it. They thought it was like a monkey could do it, they didn't respect it. They were like, it's so easy. So they had a habit of like just pushing it to the newest attorney in the firm. They were like, this will be good training for you because it's like so easy, anybody can do it. Yeah. I'd been I'd been an attorney for about two years at this point.

33:56 So as a new girl in, they were like, here you go. This is your thing. I got super lucky because the main client at the time, a concrete client, hired a new GM, like literally within a month of me starting. So it starts and he's looking at their PL and he's like, you know what, we're spending a lot on legal. I want to personally dig into this and figure out what's going on here. So he came in at the same time I came in, we hit it off, and we both were like, let's take ownership of this shit. Let's decrease your bill. I should be quiet as I say this because I was like, let's figure out a way for you not to have to pay my firm this much money. Right, right, right. Right.

34:36 And so I discovered through that relationship that like I actually love concrete. I'm a huge concrete nerd. Like, I love everything about concrete. I didn't know, but I do. Like, I got to, I finally got to go to World of Concrete in 2017, and it still is in like the top five highlights of my life. Like, I can't wait to be able to get to go back to World of Concrete again. Love concrete. Love that, love that client, loved the process. So he and I together sort of created our own approach, our own system, how we wanted to tackle this huge construction defect litigation portfolio. And I went to the partners at the time, as like a little baby lawyer. I went to the partners at the time and I said, you know what? Like, I love this. I want to take ownership of this.

35:17 This no longer has to be the sort of like redheaded stepchild that gets passed down to new attorneys. Like, I want to own it. I'm I'm taking ownership, it's mine. Because it's actually really complicated and nuanced if you take the time to dig in. There's so much room for strategy in the world of construction law, so much room for strategy if you just take the time to like learn that, right? To know realize if you pay enough attention to it to really realize it's awesome, right? So they were like, okay, go for it. Take it. So then fast forward, I built up the practice, and now 95% of my day-to-day is construction litigation, mostly subcontractors, some owners, some GCs, but I always say subs have my heart because that's where I started.

36:03 And the sort of the rest is history. I mean, like I still represent that same concrete sub. That GM is still there. My practice has grown. I'm very, very proud to be able to say that the bulk of my client portfolio are long-term client relationships that I've had for a decade or more at this point, because that's the approach that I take to my relationships with my clients. I don't, I want to build a relationship. I don't want to have I don't like to have cases, I like to have clients. Yes, yes, I love it. Oh, and to reinforce what you said at the beginning of the conversation, like your passion absolutely is coming through. And and I I feel you, sister, and people, y'all need to know, like this level of energy doesn't come for stuff that people don't give a shit about.

36:54 Right? Like you care, so it's like this reinforcing thing. You get something out of it, you put more into it, and the energy keeps coming. I've got two questions. One is ultra, ultra important. Did you fix the typos on the website? Yes. In fact, just this last year, actually, I think it was last year, maybe within the last two years. I actually have graduated now. I'm now a name partner, my name is on the wall. I I own part of the firm. The remaining partners are gone. We have new partners, Frank and I have new partners now, but it's primarily me and him. We're the two equity partners. And I told him a couple of years ago, I like, I'm owning the website. So I actually designed our current version of our website.

37:35 I'm working with a marketing team. I've got a call with them later today, actually. We're in the process of redoing it. But yes, I I designed the current version of our website and wrote all the copy myself. So yes, the typos are gone. Awesome. So I'm gonna I'll make sure to post the link in the show notes. And folks, if there's any typos, you know who to contact. Yeah, give it to me. Give it to me. I'll take it. I'll eat crow. So the second question I have, I'm trying to in my head, I'm trying to figure out like sequencing, because I think when when I've been involved or enthralled myself into things, new things surface, right? Like another layer, another nuance. Like, oh, oh, and I I kind of chase that.

38:16 And when people look at it from current state, it appears as if I've always been focused on this one thing. Kind of like I mentioned earlier, right? People focus, that's all I talk about. That's not where I started, right? I started process and eventually discovered that well, there's like people are really important because without the people, processes don't work. And so as that relates to what I've heard from you so far, you started off in litigation, and now what I uh a lot of the messaging I hear from you is around risk management. And am I wrong in thinking the the techniques, the strategy, the tactics on how you serve people in terms of mitigating risk came from litigating stuff and saying, oh, there's a trip hazard, oh, there's another trip hazard.

39:08 Yeah? 100%. And I mean, this is why when people like when people start asking me, like, what do you mean when you talk about risk management in construction? The very first thing I say is like, okay, most people when they hear risk in construction, they're usually hearing about it from somebody in the insurance space. It's usually right, it's usually brokers, it's usually captives, it's usually carriers that are doing these like quote unquote risk management trainings because they're trying to reduce claims. It's all motivated by like the multi-billion dollar insurance conglomerate trying to save a few bucks on your claim. Sorry, fuck that. Like, I don't, it's not insurance, it's an important part of a proactive risk management strategy.

39:49 It's an important piece of the puzzle, it's one small piece and it's reactive by nature, right? Because you're only dealing with insurance once you have a problem. It's reactive. So insurance pisses me off. I've sued a lot of insurance carriers. It does, I'm sorry, this you want to talk about passion. Get me going on insurance, okay? That's the one, huh? Listen, I love suing insurance carriers because of how much they screw over their own clients. It's ridiculous. Yeah. So I get real mad when people are like, oh, risk is insurance. You must be an insurance. I'm like, I am absolutely not, right? So, because my whole approach, you nailed it on the head. I've been litigating for almost 15 years now, and I'm sitting here going, like, especially with my long-term clients, I've been with you long enough now.

40:32 If we start learning some of these lessons and applying them on the front end, we can avoid litigation all altogether, or because you can't always avoid litigation in construction, we all know that. When we end up in litigation, we'll be in a better position. We'll have all the documentation we need. So 100%, my entire system, my framework, aim for higher profits. It all comes from it is informed by the lessons I have learned from litigating this shit on the back end for 15 years. Let's be strategic, guys. Let's talk about this stuff in the beginning. And yeah, not from an insurance standpoint. I don't I have zero interest in saving AIG 50 grand.

41:16 Zero interest in that. Give the policy benefits to the people who are paying their premiums. It's not that difficult. Oh my gosh. I love it. I'm with you. I'm with you. So here's a thought. I wonder, is there a level of resistance? What are the similarities or differences, whichever makes the most sense for you, in terms of when you're talking to a current client about risk mitigation and a prospect about risk mitigation? What do you see any similarities or differences into how they receive that and how open they are to it? 100%. I think for two reasons. Of course, my my current clients are going to be way more receptive to it.

41:58 And I think for two reasons, right? One, we have a trusting relation. They trust me. They trust me with their business at this point. I mean, I just had, you were there, Jesse. I just had my own live stream a couple of days ago where I actually had one of my law firm clients on and she told a really powerful story. They had a lawsuit that was literally potentially catastrophic for the company. And it was all on my shoulders. And I got them through it. And I'm not saying that to like pat myself on the back. I'm saying that because when I then go to them and I say, hey guys, I think we should try this thing on the front end, they're they don't even have to question. They don't even have to pause. They're like, okay, let's do it, right? Because I've already like I already have that trust with them. I've already proven myself with them. So I think that's one reason.

42:40 The other reason is because my clients all came to me as a result of being involved in litigation. So they already had that worst case scenario happen. And then we move the relationship up that allows us to be proactive, right? But they they've already experienced a worst case. Whereas if I'm talking to a prospective new client, first of all, they don't know me and trust me. And I don't blame them for that. There are a lot of people out there that are pushing magic bullets to increase profits, and there's nothing behind it. There really isn't. And so I don't blame them for looking at me like, okay, sure, you you've got the solution. I don't blame them for that. But that's so but that's one challenge, right? And then the other one is if they're lucky, a lot of times they either haven't been in business long enough.

43:22 Yeah, usually that's why, they haven't been in a situation where they're where they have faced a catastrophic loss. And so they don't understand how high the stakes can be. They have a huge blind spot to risk. They don't know what they don't know, and they don't know what risk they're actually holding, especially new, like I've talked on LinkedIn lately about this fictional character I created called Jake the Mason, right? And it's like such a because it resonated with so many people because it's such a common story, right? Like Jake the Mason was a great Mason. He started taking work on the side on the weekends because he was so good at what he did. He brought his buddies in to help because he kept getting more and more side work. He finally is like, I'm just gonna start my own masonry business because I'm a great Mason. That's wonderful.

44:02 But Jake doesn't know how to run a business. And Jake is now out there operating as a sole proprietor. I will have a heart attack. Jake doesn't know that his house is on the line, that his car is on the line, that his wife's car is on the line. They don't know what they don't know. And so because they don't realize how risky they are actually being, they don't see the value in investing on the front end and being proactive about it. And so, by on the line, for clarity, I think you it the way that translates to me is if a client were to go after them for damages, they could get access to all of their personal assets. Exactly. So when you're operating as a sole proprietor, that means that you don't have any legal protection.

44:46 There's no difference between you and your business. Even if you have a business license, even if you have insurance, there's no legal protection there. That's why an LLC, a limited liability corporation, is like the bare minimum you need to do. That is your barrier. That is your protection of your personal assets versus the assets of the business. And if you, I don't care if you've got separate bank accounts, I don't care if you're operating like you are an LLC, if you do not have that corporate formation in place, if you face a catastrophic loss that either exceeds your policy limits or, God forbid, is an uncovered claim, meaning you don't have any insurance for the claim, they can go beyond just your business bank account into your personal bank account where you buy groceries.

45:31 If you don't have enough money in your bank account to satisfy a judgment, they can put a lien on your home. Like I get real passionate about this one because I'm so scared for these construction guys who are operating as whole proprietors and think it's not worth their time, energy, effort, or money to like take that extra step. And it's so easy and it's not expensive at all. It's really like California is probably one of, I'm sure it's one of the more expensive places to do it because we're more expensive at everything. And even here, it's only$800 a year to be to have an LLC. Like, why will you not do that? And they won't, they don't do it because they don't know what they don't know. Right, right. A lot. Well, hopefully, folks, LM family out there, what you just heard, and I promise I'm probably I'm gonna clip that to help people understand because it it's real, right?

46:19 I you probably can guess this, Megan, but I'm a pretty risk tolerant person. No, I'm probably riskier than I should be, but it doesn't until you know the pain, it's really not a thing, right? It's a myth, it's uh it's the boogeyman. But we are talking about your home. We are talking about your children's future here, that that's what's at risk. Like for real, for real, that's what at what's at risk. It's not a matter of well, that doesn't happen to me because I'm you know an excellent operator. Yeah, it's really a matter of it hasn't happened to you yet.

47:04 Like it it the longer period. I heard a a story, I think I heard on a podcast, they're talking about this group of entrepreneurs, and they're talking about like the requirements to be a part of this group, and so there was a certain amount of revenue and and you know, whatever, certain number of businesses they had to have started, which I'm like, oh yeah, this is all woo-woo, like elitism, bullshit. And then they said the other requirement was you had to have at least filed for bankruptcy once. Wow. And then I'm like, holy okay, like that's real talk there. Like that's real, not saying the goal is to be filing for bankruptcy, but the lessons you learn that drive you to bankruptcy are tremendous, and then because of the pain, now it's for real, yeah, sets you up to mitigate your risk in a more responsible manner going forward.

48:02 What do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, first of all, I mean, like I love and hate it because it's like, okay, I get a little bit upset about these sort of elitist organizations for entrepreneurs because I'm like, okay, but like the little guys are the ones who need it more, right? And it's like just being so exclusionary. I don't like gatekeeping, whatever. But I do love the idea of like you have to have failed and failed catastrophically, right? Because that's that's where growth happens, right? Like we grow, we learn more. I'm I'm a huge advocate of like Carol Dweck's you know, growth mindset. Love that book, it's great. I'm all about it. So it's like that's where the learning comes in. That's where the the growth comes from, is like those catastrophic failures. Now, with that said, to go back a second, learn the catastrophic failure when it's your company that files for bankruptcy, not when it's you as an individual that now has to file for bankruptcy.

48:56 Right it's different. They're very, very different. Yeah, yeah. Have a company that fails. Learn those lessons. Don't lose your house over it. Girl, I file I got my LLC, and I was like, you know how many times people you go? I'm like, oh God, like that's all like this is the stupidest thing in the world. I think for the first time I feel better about it. Because I'm like, I don't want to feel out, like, come on, dude. Like, I don't, I don't need to do, like, I don't need to. And I think here's like for high-risk tolerant people like me, I don't have to do it to start a business.

49:39 Right. So in my brain, it's not necessary. Yeah. But if something goes wrong, it becomes really necessary. Yeah. Or really valuable, I should say. Yeah. And I want to I want to just pause because now you've said it twice and I want to talk about this for a second because you took you talked about your risk tolerance, right? And that is so key. So when when I work with clients, whether it's through my online course or my individual or whatever, my in-person trainings, whatever it is outside of the law firm. When I'm I'm not talking about law clients, I'm talking about proactive risk management clients. The first step is a risk tolerance assessment. So I have a customized risk tolerance assessment that I have created because proactive risk management strategies are not one size fits all.

50:26 I don't want somebody to be deterred because they're like you and they're like, I've I've got a high risk tolerance. I'm willing to roll the dice, I'm willing to gamble, therefore, I don't need to even think about this stuff because I've got such a high risk tolerance. There are still things like an LLC, like the minimum stuff that would still benefit you even with a high risk tolerance. And so that's why I love to start there because I'm like, okay, great. I can still help you in key ways, even if you have a super high risk tolerance. Or on the other side, the flip side of that coin, I actually have a very low risk tolerance. I am a very risk-averse person. My course is created for somebody like me because it's easier to scale back. So I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you the level 100, you don't want any risk at all.

51:07 Here it is. And then as you have a higher and higher risk tolerance, you can pick and choose from the buffet of strategies about what makes the most sense for you and your specific risk tolerance. I like that. Oh, okay. So we're gonna have to come back to that because in that there's multiple ways that you serve. So you serve in your practice, you're a partner at your practice. Congratulations, because I know that ain't no small thing. Thank you. It's actually a pretty freaking monumental thing. Congratulations. Thank you. I know that you have an online course. I know that you teach at university. And I just heard that you have like a different coaching thing that sounds like in-person risk mitigation thing.

51:51 Is it only four or are there more? Am I missing other things? One, two, three, four, five. There's five. Okay. I'm like, whew, let me think. Okay, yeah. So lawyer, done. We talked a lot about that. The online course is, yeah, that's one. I don't like the word coaching for myself. And here's why. Two reasons. One, I think it's a diluted market, and I think it's really easy to dismiss somebody who says I'm a coach. Actually, three reasons. So that's one. Two, there are actual coach certifications out there and I don't have them. You don't have to have them, but as somebody who likes takes obviously certifications pretty fucking seriously since I got a bar license, right? Like I don't have that certification. So I feel like it's disingenuous and a little bit disrespectful to the people who took that effort and time to go get that certification.

52:36 I don't have it. But also, three, I feel like a lot of times in my experience, coaches really tend to focus more on mindset. And that's valuable in its own little silo. Like I've got I've had coaches before. I need help with mindset. That's great for what it is, but I don't really give a shit about mindset. I talk strategy, and I don't really think that's coaching. So what I say is I do one-on-one strategies, strategy sessions. So other people might characterize that as coaching, but I call it one-on-one strategy sessions because it's not, I'm not talking to you about your mindset around risk. I'm talking to you about these are the eight areas that you are facing risk.

53:17 These are the things you need to know, and these are the strategies you need to implement. Let's talk about your company and your business, and let's create in this session an actionable plan that you're ready to go back and implement. Okay. So I don't like coaching to describe that. It's different, I think. I love it. Okay. And thank you for the clarity because yes, yes. And I'm on the other end again on the certification thing. Yeah, yeah. But I I completely appreciate your perspective and I can appreciate and value certifications. Yeah. But also path of least resistance. If I don't need it, I ain't gonna get it. Yeah, and again, I'm not trash talking coaches. I just think that what they do is very different than what I do. I don't want paralegals saying they're lawyers because they're not, right?

54:00 They're super important, super valuable, but they're not lawyers, they're paralegals. So, and then the other one is is yeah, in-person trainings. So, oh, and I and teaching. So, sorry, uh, four is in-person trainings. So I come out to your job, I prefer to do it in person. I think that's where the magic happens. I mean, I'll do Zoom if that's the client's preference, but I prefer to come and be there in person at the business, dig in to the actual business. So I take that same framework that's in my online course. It's an eight, eight-module framework. I take that same thing. I come into the business. The first day is I meet with the key stakeholders, I'll call them. Usually that's owners and maybe C-suite. And we go through the whole system as it pertains to your company specifically.

54:44 And by the end of that day, we have now mapped out at the key stakeholder level what the company's new proactive risk management policies and procedures are going to be. Now we have that plan. Day two, training two, doesn't happen the next day. This is where I think I'm maybe a little bit different. Yeah. This happens a month or so later, depending on schedule availability. I come back, but now I'm with supers, PMs, foremen, and maybe some key field guys based on what the company thinks is important. And now it's the train the trainer session. So it's now me saying, all right, this is these are the new risk management policies and procedures that your company is implementing. I'm gonna train you on them, and then I'm going to train you this afternoon on how to train your field guys.

55:26 Because from a proactive risk management standpoint, I'm here to tell you the most important part of that equation is the field guys. The field guys are hands down the most important part of a proactive risk management strategy. Preach. Yes. Hands down. So there's that. And then, yes, I'm also I teach construction law and contracts as part of the construction management program at UC Davis's continuing professional education school. So I do that as well. So that's all five. Oh, baby. So you busy. And and you're active on the LinkedIn, active on social media, and the juicy part. We we almost completely skipped this construction love story part.

56:06 Oh, yeah, we did. You're happily married to a fellow construction worker, but he actually still works, not like me. I'm just I'm a house cat now. How did like what happened there? Yeah. So the same year that I made partner at the firm, actually, 2017, I was going through a divorce. And I had one of my subcontractor clients who I'd had for years at that point. By the way, they're one of the most proactive risk management clients I've ever had. They have invested in proactive risk management, like fully invested from the beginning. And as part of that, my husband Jeremy was working for them at the time as like a hybrid superintendent slash PM slash risk management guy.

56:50 Like he was the, he was like the fixer. So when projects would go bad, he was the one that they would send to the job, because he's very like charismatic and personable, so he can have those difficult conversations in a way that's not alienating, right? So they had brought me in to do a training with the key stakeholders, including all the super Zelda PMs, when I was doing a training with them, and he sort of like spotted me from the back of the room. So fast forward, I made partner, and so the owner of the company wanted to take me out to celebrate. I was like, it was like a month of just like drunken debauchery because making partner, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and so so they they wanted to take me out to dinner and they like roped Jeremy in because he had just he was also divorced and had just recently gotten out of his first long-term relationship post-divorce.

57:35 They were together for about a year. Okay. And he was in what I'm gonna affectionately refer to as his tender era at the time. At the time. And I was like, I wasn't, I was just like, I had just basically told my husband, I'm like, I'm out, I want a divorce, this has been over for years, whatever. So I wasn't dating or anything yet. And so the client was like, hey, you know what? Like, Megan will be a good influence on Jeremy because she's a hell of a lot better than like what he's been doing. And Jeremy will be a good distraction for Megan since she's like like at the beginning part of this process. So they thought we would just be like a fun distraction for each other. So they were like, hey, Jeremy, we're gonna take our lawyer out to out to dinner or yeah, out to dinner to celebrate making partner. You know what?

58:15 I just told this story in the wrong order. I hadn't done the training yet. I forgot this part because he didn't know who I was. So when the when his boss was like, we're gonna go out with our lawyer, you should come. He, of course, was envisioning what a lot of people who've never dealt with an attorney think of. Like the old fat white-haired dude, right? Like, not to be crude, but that's I'm repeating his version of this story. So he's like, Okay, like felt like he couldn't say no, but had zero interest in actually going to this dinner. Yeah. So I get there, they were already there. I got there a few minutes late because I was coming from somebody else having taken me out for drinks to celebrate making partners. So I came late and I walked in and he was like, Wait, what?

58:55 That's that's our lawyer. Because I mean, I was 30, I was 34 back then. I looked a lot better. So he was like, That's our lawyer. So we hit it off because he's a very personable guy and stayed friends. Then I came in and did the training. I found out after the fact that like he and some of the other supers and PMs were like, you gotta get with Megan, right? So he was like about it before I was. So fast forward a couple of months, we were down in San Diego at uh PCBC, Pacific Coast Builders Convention, I think is what it stands for. Okay. And I had a different client who had rented a yacht. And so they were like, Megan, come out on the yacht. And if you have other clients that are at the convention, bring them out on the yacht. So the client was down there, and I was like, Hey, do you guys want to come out on the yacht?

59:38 Jeremy, meanwhile, was back up in Northern California at a job site. So my client, his boss, bought him a ticket, called him, and he was like, Hey, I know you're at this job site in San Jose. There's a ticket waiting for you at SFO. You're flying down to San Diego right now. And Jeremy was like, And he's like in like he's in the field. So he's like looking down, he's like, my genius. Are dirty. I don't have a toothbrush. Like, what? Just go, we'll figure it out. Literally, literally. So he flies down, goes out on this yacht with me, and asks me out. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, such a lawyer answer. I go, like, I have to do some legal research first.

1:00:22 Because I didn't literally, yeah, because I didn't know he's a client. And I didn't know that his boss was like orchestrating this. Nobody had like looped me in. So I'm like, I don't know how my client is gonna feel about that. You're in management, so there's a chance you could have your deposition taken and I would be the attorney defending you at your deposition. I don't, I let I don't know. I literally don't know if I can go out with you, regardless of if I want to or not. I don't know if I can. So he was great. And he was like, okay, well, like, just just know it's an open invitation. Good for him. Hell yeah. Yeah. So I literally did the legal research and he was like persistent. I was sort of just like, well, I don't know, whatever. But he didn't stop.

1:01:02 He was like, kept asking, kept asking. Finally, he was like, you know what? I just want to be your friend. If you're not interested, that's fine, no pressure. I we I just want to be your friend outside of like work. And so that was the thing where I was like, okay, I'll go on a date with you. So we went on our first date, and I was like, okay, let's not tell your boss about the first date because let's see if there's anything to even tell, right? Like, I know I like you, but like maybe we just don't have that chemistry. It was like the most amazing first date ever. It was like out of a movie. It was like love at first sight or love at first date. We've we have not been apart since. He immediately like deleted his like all of his dating apps, ended every like conversation that he was having with every other girl from like literally that night.

1:01:45 We got married on the anniversary of our first date because it was literally like we were never, we were never apart. We now have a child, we have a son together, and it was it was really interesting because we both said when we started dating, like, hey, I don't want to get married again. Like both of us were like, we don't want to get married again. He already he has a son from his prior marriage who's wonderful, but so he was like, I don't want more kids. And I was like, I don't want kids, so that works, right? I know. So fast forward, and so I remember we were laying in bed one day, and he goes, like, he rolled over and he was like, Hey, you know what? Like, I've been thinking a lot about this, and I don't want to be the reason that you don't get to experience motherhood. If that's something that you want, I'm open to being the one that like makes that happen for you.

1:02:28 And I was like, Oh, I gotta think about this because I don't, I uh okay, let me think about it. So, yeah, so now we've been that was 2017. We've been together ever since. Our son is five and happily married. So that is an amazing story. Oh my god. He does not work for that client anymore. He's now a superintendent for a mechanical uh company in here in Sacramento. But but yeah, so I still represent the client. He doesn't work there anymore, but it's a love story. So awesome. That's that's a you got there's a movie there. I think there's a Netflix series in there for sure. Especially like with the yacht and all that. That's that's freaking awesome. All right, two questions as we round third and head home.

1:03:10 Okay. One, like we you said you have five things, jobs, things that you do, but you're also like planning retreats or a mini conference or something. You do that too. Like you're like an event organizer, also, yeah. Well, there is a conference, but I have to give it's so interesting that we're rounding out with this because we started out talking about my parents, and you're gonna be surprised to hear this, but this involves my dad. So, yeah. So, what happened was I made an off-handed comment to like to somebody in the construction space on LinkedIn one time. We were doing a coffee chat, and I was like, wouldn't it be cool if like a bunch of us got together in one place like we used to do? Remember pre-COVID when we actually still networked in person?

1:03:50 Wouldn't it be fun if we like all got together? And he was like, Yeah, that would be awesome. You should organize that. And I was like, Okay. Then I had like another coffee chat like a week later, and I said it again, and that person was like, Yeah, you should organize that. And then I think a week after that, I talked to you and I said the same thing, and you were like, Yeah, you should organize that. So I was like, Okay. So I started kind of thinking about it, and then next thing you know, Josh Havi has a podcast with John Goose Dunham on it. I'm listening to the replay, and they're like, Oh yeah, Megan Shapiro, she's hosting a retreat, a construction retreat in Savannah in September. And I was like, I'm doing what now? What's happening? It's a retreat now. Oh, I thought that we were gonna like pick a city and all just be like, okay, let what weekend should we all just go to this random city and hang out with each other?

1:04:33 No, so now it, yeah, so yeah, so now it's a full three-day retreat. It's called Construction LinkedIn in real life, hashtag Savannah in September. We're going to Savannah, Georgia, the last weekend of September, which is sorry, I have to look at my calendar on the wall. September 27th through the 29th. Um we are going to be three days. There's going to be a mix, a combination of organized formal events and organized informal events. So right now, the current itinerary looks like Friday night is going to be a little bit on your own, except for we're going to do a ghost tour because I love, well, woo, right? All kinds of all ties together. We're going to do a ghost tour of old Savannah, and that's kind of like if you want to join us, join us.

1:05:14 Saturday is going to be a day full of organized programming. We are in the process of finalizing the details on a conference room. We're going to have breakfast and lunch served at the conference room with uh coffee breaks and snack breaks in between. We're going to have networking opportunities, breakout sessions, some presentations from a few people, I think, still talking about that, what that's going to look like, but that's going to be more formal. Saturday night, we're going to, again, this is whoever wants to join. We're going to do dinner on the river, the riverboat cruise tour, dinner on Saturday night. And then Sunday is still up in the air. I don't know if that's going to be an organized breakfast or if that's going to just sort of be like whoever wants to get together to follow up on their networking conversations from Saturday.

1:05:55 But the reason why I said my dad is because I am not organizing any of it. I roped in my dad. My dad is semi-retired. He has been a lifelong salesperson and he had many years where he was in sales and construction. So when this looked like a thing that everybody was expecting like a big production for, I called my dad and I was like, Dad, I need you. Like, I gotta need your help. So my dad, I gotta give all credit to my dad. He has taken the laboring ore on organizing all of it. He's been interfacing with the hotel, been working out the contract details, doing all of that. So my dad gets credit. So he's gonna be coming too. So everybody will get to meet my dad since he's actually the real mastermind behind the planning. But we are gonna be capped at 25 people because it's the first time out and I didn't want to uh get in over my head.

1:06:40 So we should be finalizing all of the contracts with the hotel in the next week or so, and then I'm gonna then tickets will go on sale and it will just be first come, first serve. And when 25 are sold, then that's it. And if it's popular, I'm open to keep making it an annual thing. Oh girl. Yeah. So and I don't know. I since you can edit this, I guess I'll just say this. I don't know if you want to talk about your involvement in it yet or not, but that's why I didn't say anything and I was vague. But if you want to talk about it, yeah, yeah, no. One thing I'll say is I'm gonna be there. Okay, yeah. And I hope people have learned this, and I hope you know this. Like, I'm all about supporting people, bringing new ideas into the world, like awesome people, and you are one of those people.

1:07:23 Um, there's a lot of people that have ideas and talk smack. I'm just gonna say it, it may rub some people wrong. There's a lot of people that are happy to say, Yeah, you should do that, and you still don't know if them fools are gonna show up, even though they were the ones that were instigating it. Right. So I know what that feels like, and when I heard about it, I'm like, this woman don't play. I need to contribute, and you were gracious enough to allow me to contribute or invite me to contribute and invite me to come and hang out. So I'm excited for whatever the hell it's gonna be. I get the sense that it's gonna be freaking amazing, and it's not gonna be the last one.

1:08:04 So that's what I got to say about that. Love it. Closing question, Miss Megan. What is the promise you are intended to be? Ooh, that is a good closing question. You know what? And I'm just gonna be really honest with you. I've heard you talk a lot about this. I've heard it as your sort of tagline catchphrase. I don't necessarily know if I really understand what it means. So I'm gonna put it back in your court. What's yours? Give me an example, and then that'll help me understand what mine is. I love it. So a little bit of context. It's the title of my book, right? Becoming the promise you're intended to be. It comes from one of my counselors when I was in rehab, inpatient rehab.

1:08:44 He pointed out to me, he says, Jess, you're pretty good at admitting that you have a problem, that you're an alcoholic, that you're an addict, et cetera. He says, But you haven't accepted. And I say, What freaking lawyer games are we playing here, splitting hairs on words? And he said, No, what you haven't accepted is that if you continue to live life the way you're living it, you will never become the promise you are intended to be. And so in that moment, I still can't like articulate it worth a damn, but in that moment, I knew all of those times that I felt like I could be more, I could contribute more, that I suppressed because that's impractical, that was the promise that I could see.

1:09:29 All of those times that I felt conviction for making selfish, short-sighted decisions, that was me missing the mark. And so, fast forward to now, for me, becoming the promise I'm intended to be is a matter of me sharing my gifts and talents and service to others. How can I contribute to others' path? How can I help them, guide them, support them, cheer them on in their path to self-discovery? That's my that's the promise I am intended to be. How does that help? That does help. Yeah. So I guess I would say similar to you, but I'm a little bit more specific about it in the sense that I really genuinely believe in the power of proactive risk management.

1:10:16 And so I really just want to get the message out to construction leaders of all shapes and sizes. There is so like I literally they don't understand how much they're losing in money because like you can truly, truly increase your profits, you can increase your bottom line by being strategic about your risk management. There are ways that you can track your ROI on this. Like they're like there, you I can level, I can help them level up. I want to help them level up in this very targeted and specific way. That's I guess what the promise that I'm intended to be. I understand like the money thing is a good thing to anchor on because it's measurable, it's easily measured.

1:11:00 Yeah. But you and I both know that by investing in your services or maybe not even your services, but in a proactive risk mitigation situation strategy, your quality of life is gonna be profoundly better. Am I wrong? No, not at all. And again, I I talked about this earlier, but with the live stream that I just did with one of my clients, one of the biggest hurdles and the hardest impacts that they felt from that catastrophic lawsuit that they were facing was the emotional toll that it took on them. And I think that a lot of times leaders who haven't yet experienced it, and I do mean yet, because it is inevitable.

1:11:41 I mean, if you're in construction for any length of time beyond a blink of an eye, you're gonna get there. It's gonna happen. And I think people don't really fully appreciate the emotional toll that it takes. Literally, sleepless nights, emails to me that were sent in at 2:30 in the morning because they can't fall asleep because they're replaying it over and over and over in their head, like losing sleep, worrying about the people that they're employing and their families and the domino effect of like if they can't figure a way out of this, they have now lost their entire workforce, and their workforce is out of work, their family doesn't now now have that paycheck. And that weighs heavy on a leader, heavy on a leader.

1:12:23 And I think that's exactly it. People don't they don't really appreciate the toll that it takes. And so if you can prevent that, why wouldn't you? Amen, sister. Did you have fun? I had a blast, I always have a blast talking to you, Jesse. Same tons of energy. I think we're gonna melt the internet when this thing goes live. Dang, you stuck around all the way to the end, and I hope the reason you stuck it like all the way through was because you were getting a lot of value out of the conversation. I always give at least one, most of the time, a handful of good nuggets, good ideas, good perspectives that I can take and apply into my life going forward.

1:13:04 That's the whole point. I want to share that with you guys and also highlight the amazing people that they are. And I want to end this by saying if you feel like you've been living out a script that was written for somebody else, and you feel like you're in the wrong skin, I know that life. And all I did was numb myself to make it through to another day. Which, if you're there, you know how hopeless that feels. I want to recommend that you check out Becoming the Promise You Are Intended to Be. The stories in this book will help you know that you're not alone. They're my personal stories, like the real stuff that I went through, and I'm sharing them because it helps keep me sober.

1:13:47 It helps me contribute my gifts and my talents in service to others. It helps me turn my failures, my shame, my embarrassment into something useful and positive. So check it out. Be kind to yourself, be cool, and we'll talk at you next time. Peace. Thank you for sticking it out all the way to the end. I know you got a whole lot of stuff going on. And in appreciation for the gift of time that you have given this episode, I want to offer you a free PDF of my book, Becoming the Promise You're Intended to Be. The link for that bad boy is down in the show notes. Hit it. You don't even have to give me your email address.

1:14:28 There's a link in there. You just click that and you can download the PDF. And if you share it with somebody that you know who might feel stuck or be caught up in self-destructive behaviors, that would be the ultimate. You sharing that increases the likelihood that it's going to help one more person. And if it does help one more person, then you're contributing to me becoming the promise I am intended to be. Be kind to yourself, be cool, and we'll talk at you next time.