Porta Potty Philosophy: Decision Making & Vulnerability- Developing comfort beyond outcomes and the power skills to make your mark

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to the Learnins and Missteps podcast, where we intend to change the image of careers in the trades. We celebrate the real men and women who have built careers in the construction industry by bringing their personal stories straight to you. I began my career as a plumber's apprentice in the late 1900s. Over the last 26 years, I've had the fortune of meeting some of the most resilient, intelligent, and inspiring people who happen to be construction workers. My career path as a plumber has provided me with experiences and opportunities I thought were inaccessible. And I want you to know that the trades are a place where dreams can come true. These stories are brought to you by three brothers who share a mother. I am Jesse, your host. Our in-house writer is Ernest, aka La Vos. Hello. And our co-host, Renee. What's up? Y'all ready? Yes, sir. Dale.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Hey Jesse, could you tell me about the outcome of this episode?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Oh, Ernest, can you think of a situation where you've ever experienced fear or pressure associated with making a decision? You've been in that spot before this episode. Oh, yeah. This episode is for you. So, what you're gonna get is you're gonna get to hear us discuss the relationship between decisions and outcomes and the dynamics of how people respond to that. And also, there's a tasty nugget where Renee has a deep reflection about the value of appreciation. I think our listeners are going to get some good meaty stuff out of this episode. So you ready to check it out?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Oh, I'm ready. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

All right, Renee. Well, you got an idea that you wanted to discuss. So what's up?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Yeah, so I wanted to talk about being comfortable or accepting being wrong. Like, how do you how do you like get comfortable with being wrong? You know, I feel like there's this pressure to make the right call, make the perfect decision that has like very little consequences, especially like in a like a like as a young or maybe a starting budding uh leader, you know, you don't want to make the wrong call because it it there's consequences and it affects a lot of people. So how do you get comfortable with you know, yay, uh, I made a bad call.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

And so you're saying what I under what I understood is that as a budding leader, you're faced with situations that you don't know like the 100% guaranteed correct answer every time. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah, that's very accurate.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Okay, and your concern, well rather, what is your concern?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

You know, speaking for myself, I feel like my concern is like like as a budding leader, I guess my concern is about the credibility. Like, I'd hate to like make wrong calls, like consistent wrong calls or something, and then like they're like, oh well, Renee don't know what he's doing, and then like maybe they don't call me anymore to make a make a decision, or they don't, you know, like I don't know, or maybe they just kick me off the leadership position, you know, like because he doesn't know what he's doing, because he's always making wrong calls.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Okay, so Joe, so you're concerned about losing credibility, losing the position, losing status, losing, losing face with with the team, with your leaders. Is that accurate so far?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

That's accurate.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

How concerned are you about being demoted or staying where you're at right now?

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Um, I would say I'm I'm pretty concerned. Like I at a scale of one to ten, I would say I'm like at a six. I'm afraid consistent bad calls will keep me where I'm at, uh like from like the foreman's position.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Now, what do you think about the idea of or the difference between decisions and outcomes?

SPEAKER_02 4:16

I feel like decisions create certain outcomes. Like the decision comes first and then the outcome. I don't see how they're um the same, or you know what I mean? I feel like it's a decision first and then an outcome.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah, 100% agree. Well, whoa. So yeah, I mean that they are like you gotta make the decision first and the outcome comes after it. So that's that's good you understand that. Now, is it possible to make the right decision and have a less than awesome outcome?

SPEAKER_02 4:52

It's possible, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Okay, so if that's the situation, you make the right decision or or the most informed decision, and the outcome is other than what you were seeking. How would if if your leader did that, right? Made the the best decision with the information they had at hand, and the outcome was like again less than optimal, what would you think of that leader?

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Um, I I guess I would just say, like, well, I mean, that's just you just got a bad bag, like you know, like you did the best you could, and I mean, that's the information that was presented to you, so you really had no control over that, I guess. You did as long as they did everything they could, then you know, no harm, no foul, I guess. That's how I would see it.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Okay, and would you expect that leader to to learn from that? Yeah, for sure. Right? And and if they learned from that, would that help you respect him or her?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Okay, and so when they make that decision and put themselves out there, how would you categorize that action? Like just making the damn decision.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

What do you mean? Like, how would I categorize it?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yeah, do you see that as courageous? Do you see that as just something they do because they have to do it? Like, how do you see that?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Oh, yeah, like I I would see it as courageous. Okay. Yeah, for sure. Because like I I have respect for people or or leaders, rather, anybody, anybody who did the best they could, and they just told the truth about like, hey, this is this is what I saw, these are the results of my investigation, here it is, you know, I'm unsure, or you know, I I I feel some kind of anxiety about this and this, and they just told the truth, and you know, even if it comes out bad, I really have a lot of respect for just the vulnerability of it all to say that you are unsure, I guess. And if it comes out bad, well, I mean, you told the truth and you did everything you could.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

And so you used the a key word there, right? Vulnerability. Because there is you in in leadership or in decision making, in creating something new, in leading a team, all of the above, there is vulnerability or a requirement, maybe not even a requirement, a call to be vulnerable. And being vulnerable is courage, right? Because you're putting your name on the line and your reputation, your credibility. And what that means is you could get a parade. Renee's the best, he did he, right? And you could also end up with pie on your face because it didn't work out. But you made the decision given all the information gathered, you've tapped into all of your resources so that you could make a sound decision. So, what do you think about the leaders that play off the hip? They don't ask anybody, they don't do, they just do this, let's do that, do this, go. What do you think about those leaders?

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Jeez, I gotta make some motions about that because like I have had leaders like when I first started working at Souls, I had a leader that he believed that as a foreman, you had to know the right answer all the time. And if you did it, you had no business being a foreman if you didn't know the right answers. So, like, even if he was unsure, he would say, like, screw it, let's let's go, let's dig it out anyway. You know, like we're gonna go that we you cannot ask for help because you need to know you're a foreman now, you know. And and unfortunate or not, it usually worked out. I I can't recall a time to be honest, right now, thinking off the top of my head, I can't recall the time where he f he he fired off the hip and it didn't work out. It usually worked out. But uh, I mean, firing off the hip, I feel like it's unnecessary because there are resources available to you. Like maybe somebody higher than you or has has more experience in you, you could ask for advice or something. I feel like there's nothing wrong with that, you know. I feel like maybe firing off the hip isn't necessary, that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Okay. Well, I think I I understand how you're mixed, got like mixed emotions on it because sometimes that individual's experienced that situation before, and so they know the answer. And it can appear as if they're firing off the hip and things work out, and so that's a good thing. So maybe I should reframe it. How do you feel about the leader that rejects any input or outside information when they're making a decision?

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Hmm, yeah, I think that that just kind of sucks, you know. Why because I guess it just sucks. Like, for example, my like my I'll say it like my foreman now that's he'll he's told me before, he says, a good foreman listens to his helper. Okay. And what does that mean? And the helper, the the helper in our job, specific to my job now, um in a in a distribution and collection job, you're digging a hole, and the guy inside the hole has more information about what's inside the hole than anybody outside of the hole. So the helper is in the hole. You don't have the foreman in the hole, you don't have the operator in the hole, you have the helper. The lowest guy on the totem pole is in the hole, so he knows what's going on in this situation. He may not have the most experience, but he has eyes on the situation better than anyone else on the job side. So it it does suck like when the foreman doesn't listen to the dude or uh take input from the guy inside of the hole who has eyes on it better than anybody else. Because, like, dude, he he's telling you there's a gas line right here, and you're telling the operator to take out another bucket, you know, it's it's kind of scary, you know. And yeah, I I don't know. Does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yes. So there's two things, right? I mean, earlier we were talking about the leader that that accesses or uses all of her resources, asks questions, takes input, provides like, okay, look, this is all of the information that I was able to gather. And based on these facts, I'm gonna make this recommendation. And as a side note, I think it's important to say I'm not, there's still some risk. I'm not comfortable. I'm not a hundred percent comfortable, but this is where I'm at. And so what you said was that you you value that, you would appreciate the courage and the vulnerability in that. And then now we're talking about the leader that doesn't take input, that rejects the input. And in that situation, you you you know explained the story of that puts other people's lives at risk. That puts the operation, the team, at risk because they're not taking input and they're just gonna make a damn decision. Is that correct so far?

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah, yeah, that's that's totally correct. Because, like, you know, like I said, like with no experience, even though the guy in the hole doesn't have the most experience, he he at least has the eyes to see better than in that situation. In this situation, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

In that situation, that laborer is the least experienced in terms of years and knowledge, but in the situation, they have access to the most accurate and relevant information, right? Yeah, and they're getting rejected because oh, you're just a damn laborer, shut up and dig. Is that kind of the scenario?

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Yeah, that's but on.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Okay, yeah, and so so there's some ego there, right? There's some ego, some ignorance. And that's is that the kind of leader you want to be? Oh, definitely not. Okay, now so back to the the thought about decisions and outcomes, right? In that point, he would be a leader that made a decision. And right now you and I can agree that that's not the right decision to keep digging because there's a damn gas line there, or there could be. But if they go forward and dig it, and there is no gas line or there's no issue, nothing happens, nothing negative happens, the outcome is positive. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

But the decision was not the right decision. Right now, in his brain or his or her brain, they're gonna say, Well, I made the decision, I'm the leader, and see, I told you everything worked out. But everybody knows, like, yeah, bro, we just got lucky. How how accurate is that? Yeah, that's pretty accurate. We're tracking so far, yeah. We're tracking. So he makes a wrong decision, the outcome is positive, and that reinforces the thinking that I know what the hell I'm doing. I'm a leader. I made the call when everybody was scared. But if it goes the other way, bad decision. Bad outcome. And now we can well, nobody will argue that it was a bad decision and a bad outcome. Like because of the outcome, no one will argue that it was a bad decision. Okay. And I'm going, so I know this, I can see your face of twisting your brain a little bit. Um, for you as a young budding leader, it is important for you to grasp and further understand the idea or the difference between decisions and outcomes. Making the right decision does not guarantee you that the outcome is gonna be what you're seeking, right? And so let's further define making the right decision. Making the right decision, let's qualify that. Let's go and and use all the experience that you have in your body. And if you're not sure, then you go get outside input, resources, testing devices, whatever it is, to you talk to your team, talk to your leadership. Once you've gathered all the facts, right? Not opinions, not assumptions, all the facts of the situation, you got input and insight from everybody around you, from your leadership and so forth. That's making a right decision. Getting the facts, getting input. Because how smart are you by yourself? Like in in like let's say you're in a you're work working with your team. How many years of experience do you have?

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Me, I have like one year experience in my current job right now.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Okay. And and your team members, how many years of experience do they have? Más o menos.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Like average, like 10 years, 10 or 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

And how many people are in your team? Five. Five people. And you said you have what three years of experience?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Okay. Yeah. So if all you're using is your years, your knowledge, just your knowledge, you're only accessing or tapping into three years of experience. But if you go and ask team member A, who's got 10 years of experience, now you're accessing 13 years of experience. And if you ask the rest of your team that has 10 to 15, let's just say 10, including yours, that's a total of 43 years of experience that you're tapping into. Tracking? Yeah, I'm tracking. And then if you're still like you're still, uh I'm not sure, then you go outside of your immediate circle and get more input, more information, more equipment, whatever it is. So to make a decision just based on uh like let me rephrase that. The habit of seeking outside input, tapping into other people's experience is a damn good habit to have. And a lot of people, you're right, our our environment has conditioned people to think that they have to have the right decision right now, this second, this minute. And so we make rash decisions. And so back to making the right decision. How do you make the right decision? You access all the experience and all the resources you have at your disposal in order to make the right informed decision. Sometimes you don't have to ask everybody. Sometimes you know because you've been through it. Boom, do it. Sometimes you don't. You've never been in the situation. That's when you go and seek input and seek feedback. And now you're gonna make an informed decision, which I would say is a writer decision. That doesn't guarantee that the outcome is gonna be what you want. But what it does guarantee is that you made you did the responsible thing to make the best decision for the team and the organization. What do you think so far?

SPEAKER_02 18:03

I mean, I agree 100%, but I guess I love that. Like, you know, like you don't have to know everything right now. You know, you there's people out there, there's resources out there to help you, you know. You don't have you're not alone in a decision, you know. Nine times out of ten, you're not alone in a decision, especially if they you have the resources all around you. There's no excuse for not there's no excuse to not freaking seek help. It's everywhere, you know, and it's free, it doesn't cost you anything. So I I'm on board with that 100%. I guess I feel, I don't know, some type of way, because like another reason too, like I I was listening to a conversation the other day, and um there was a time in my company where a bunch of people left left the company, right? And uh a lot of older people with all the experience they left. Yep. So my company had to, you know, hire people to take their spots, right? And and naturally they picked the people that you maybe are were um they they just picked the person next in line, right? And and like you know, they were the in the conversation they were talking about like, well, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like, so this guy we they really picked this guy, like this guy, you know, he he's only been here for five years, you know. How could you know how could he know what he was doing? You know, he's he he made this mistake this time. Yeah, why would they pick him and not this guy who's rarely makes mistakes? You know, you know what I'm saying? So like I guess I feel some anxiety of being that guy that they just remembered my shortcomings, you know, and then like uh I don't know, like I mean, now saying it out loud, I don't know why that even matters. Like yeah, I don't know, it just feels it feels crappy, like you know, having people knowing that people are behind your back and saying, like, well, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. It just doesn't feel good, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, so going back to vulnerability, right? Vulnerability and courage in the progress your career progression and stepping up and getting more responsibility and learning new things. I guess you just gotta be ready for people to talk some smack because guess what? They're gonna. Yeah, that's true, no matter what. Like your superior, the people further up in the in leadership, they're gonna have stuff to say. The people that you support, like your peers, they're gonna have stuff to say. The people that are earlier in their career, right, that are closer to the work, they're gonna have stuff to say. And expending any energy trying to make sure nobody has anything critical or negative to say about you, dude, if you could figure that out, you wouldn't be doing the job you're doing right now. You know what I mean? So then it becomes more, and you said it, right? Like, oh wow, now that I said it out loud, like it's kind of a goofy thing. Worrying about what they might say. You have no control. We have no control of what people might say because this happens too. You make the right decision, you did all the right stuff, you made the right decision, the outcome was perfect, and they're not gonna all say, Man, that Renee's really got it going on. There's gonna be some people who say, Oh, he just got lucky. Or, yeah, yeah, everything worked out, but he had to make a couple of phone calls. Everything worked out, but really it was the team, right? Like I could have made that. So either way, people are gonna talk smack, right? Haters gonna hate, baby. That that right, like that's just the way it is. So now I feel like we're getting closer to where the situation is. Is that situation that you're wrestling with is happening in that six-inch space between both of your ears.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Well, let me throw you a curveball. Okay, so I can think of a handful of names at my company where I haven't heard anything negative about them. You know, like I hear of them, you know, people I hear of people talking about them like legends, you know, like they always knew what they were doing or something, you know. They they moved up really quick and they, you know, they had great work that work ethic and they treated people well and stuff like that. You know, I'm not gonna lie, I I'd like to have a reputation like that too, you know, because like I really do care about what I do and like making right decisions that don't make other people work harder than they need to because I messed up, you know. I really do care about I guess making the job more efficient and like just better for everybody, not just myself. I if I if I can make a decision that saves people time and money and heartache and work, I I want to make that decision, and uh I want to have that same reputation too. And I feel like there exist those people that me, you know, maybe they have made mistakes, but like for some reason nobody talks about them. I've I've talked to a lot of different people in my company, and nobody I've never heard anything negative about those people. Sure, of course, you know, everybody's poop stinks, obviously, but for what for whatever reason we don't talk about those guys' poop for whatever reason, and and I I'm not gonna lie, like I feel like I'd like to be that person too.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Okay, so we have two things going on. One, we're still talking about the space between your ears, right? Right, you have this idea of how you want to be remembered and talked about. I think that's a uh healthy thing, right? We want to be remembered at in an admirable way, we want to be admired, we want to be appreciated. And you're talking about like those people, of course they made mistakes, but nobody talks about them. So think about people the people that made people, the baseball players that made it to the hall of fame. Do you think they had to bat a thousand their batting average had to be over a thousand to make it?

SPEAKER_02 24:42

No.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

They're I mean, hell, 350. If you have a batting average over 300, you have a shot at being in the hall of fame. So what that means is 70% of the time, they can be wrong and still be considered world-class performance. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 25:03

I guess I haven't thought about that.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Okay. Now, let's take this like that's a hard metric that's not in your in in in kind of the in your workspace, right? Right. In your workspace, nobody's keeping a batting average of good right of of good and bad outcomes from decisions, and people people tend to remember all the good and filter out the bad, or remember all the bad and filter out the good. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah, I would agree 100%.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Okay. Now, what do you think contributes to people remembering the good about the person and filtering out the bad?

SPEAKER_02 25:48

I I guess, oh, that's a good one. I would say, in my opinion, I would say that person's like relationships with people. Like if you fostered like good relationships with people, actually talk to people like they're people and not tools, you know, people give you some slack that you might not otherwise uh for somebody that was just runs over people, you know. You wanna you want to see the guy who runs over people fail? You want to see him fail. You're gonna remember all that, so you have something to bring him down, but the guy that's trying to help everybody and uplifting everybody around him, you know, you might not remember those things because you want to see that guy succeed, because he wants to see you succeed too.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Okay, so gold star, young man. So then is it about making the right decisions? Uh, I would say not entirely. Okay, I'll agree with you. So if you make the right decisions, get good outcomes, and treat people like garbage, is that a good thing? No, definitely not. But if you make the right decisions, get decent outcomes, and treat people like human beings, treat people the way they want to be treated, is that a good thing?

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Yeah, okay, that's a great thing.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Okay, you know, we started this conversation about you, your angst around make having to make decisions, you know, you're you're maturing and growing in your career, um, the influence you have amongst your team and within the organization, and your your comfort level, or you have some apprehension about making the wrong decision because you don't want to be seen in a bad light. That's that's how we started this conversation. And now you brought to the table the value of building relationships and treating people like or valuing people for who they are.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

So it's a combination, right? I and I don't know what the right mixture is, but I do know that if you make if you're dismissive and rushed and pushy and abrasive to people, they really want to see you fail. They would love to see you fall on your face. How do I know? Can you guess? Because you were like that.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yes, nailed it.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

But when you invest in people, when you listen, like just listen to them, let hear them out, let them speak and share and contribute, connect with them, celebrate them, share the credit with them. When you do that, they're gonna be more tolerant about your problem, your errors, your your bad outcomes, and they're gonna remember you in a positive light. So where where where will you be where do you think rather I'll ask it this way how much effort and energy, like intentional effort and energy, do you allocate to building and fostering relationships?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Like I try to do that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

You try? You feel like you try. That doesn't sound very clear.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Yeah, I feel like I feel like that's important to me, like fostering relationships. Like it I feel a lot of pain or suffering when I when I when I even just feel like like man, I didn't give enough this guy enough credit. Or like um maybe I didn't communicate to this dude, like for you, uh I got a prime example. Like, um I I've been working on this big project with a with a partner of mine. Uh we've been working on it together, and uh he told me, he's like, You're in charge. He said, I'm just here to help you.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

He's like, I he's he told me that he's like, I feel like he told me that he feels that I was doing all the work, he's just there to help me. Right? And like I and I didn't really respond. Uh I didn't say anything, I just you know, I didn't say anything. But like, you know, fast forward two days later, I I was thinking about that statement that he gave me, and and um this this guy, my partner, he has like 10 more years experience than me, you know, 10 15, I think, you know, and like we've been bouncing off ideas off of each other. I listen to him, what he thinks, and he listens to me, and what what I think, and then we come up with a decision together. You know, I'm I'm the one who says it with my mouth or my email, but it's not mine alone. And I felt I felt some kind of uh I guess regret not telling him in that moment, like, no, dude, like your wisdom and experience has been great, you know. Yes, I feel like none of these decisions that I've been telling people would have been possible without you. And and I I didn't tell him that at the moment, and I thought about it later, and I felt like damn, like I messed up. I should have told him that. So I guess to answer your question, like that that effort, you know, when I see him again, I'm gonna tell him that effort I uh that I feel like I do put an effort to do that, and I really it's important to me to make that effort and to make sure the people that I work with feel important that they help and they contribute. I really do feel that that's important to me, and there's long-term, you know, long-term great results that can come from that. Yes, for everybody, like everybody can contribute and do great things if you just tell them they're doing a good job, or tell them you helped, or something, you know. So it's important to me. It is important to me if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah, yeah. So what I what I understood is that it's very important to you, and you reflect, or in this case, you reflected and said, damn it, I missed an opportunity to celebrate him and help him understand the value that he brought to the situation and that you trusted him. And without him, you wouldn't have got to where you got, or y'all wouldn't have been able to do what y'all actually accomplished.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Okay, good. That is a power skill. Two two power skills. One is reflecting and actually taking ownership, like, damn it, I dropped the ball. I could have, I could have helped, right? I could have had a different or better impact um on that individual, right? Help build them up because that's what we're here for, man. We're here to build people up. So reflecting is a powerful thing, but also building the skill of recognizing people for their contribution in the moment. That's tough. We're really good at telling people when they're screwing up. Yeah, yeah. But in the moment, we we're not so good at that. And so that's a muscle that we all need to build. And you that this early in your career, being aware of that, uh man, I think you're well suited to to become that leader you intend to be. Does that help? Yeah, that helps a lot. So to summarize, we we talked about you being concerned or uh about making the wrong decision, and then it it kind of surfaced that, well, it's yeah, it's about making the wrong decision, but it's also about how people are gonna remember you, about the legacy that you're gonna leave behind. And that led us to the conversation about the value of relationships and recognizing people for for their their gifts and talents and reflecting on a regular basis and building the skill of giving people positive feedback. So if you build that skill of giving people positive, actionable feedback in the moment, and keep on reflecting and continuing accessing your resources for input and feedback and valuing, nurturing, cultivating relationships, if you did those things, would how how likely is it that you'll become the leader you want to be?

SPEAKER_02 34:21

I mean, very likely. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Okay. So what's keeping you from doing that? Uh nothing. Oh okay. So how do you feel now? I feel I feel better. Yeah? Yeah, I feel better.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Okay. That'll be 99.99, sir. I'll add it to your bill.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

I added it to my tab, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Yeah. Did we answer all the questions you wanted to investigate?

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

You know, Renee, I really love the conversations that you and I have. It it fills me with joy and a little bit of pride to be reminded of how caring and practical a man you are. I'm proud of you, brother. Also, we have some feedback from one of our listeners. Would you mind uh giving who are we gonna give a shout out to?

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Yeah, let's give a shout out to Felipe Engineer Manriquez. Uh, they say listening to you guys reminds me of talking to my uncles. Big hearts and lots of wisdom. Sharing with the generations. Thank you for that, Felipe. Uh that that really means a lot to me. I I know speaking for myself, I like to try to talk as how I would talk to anybody. You know, I I don't try to get fancy or anything. I just say, speak for my heart, whatever's in my heart, and just let it go. So thank you. That means a lot to me.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Likewise, thank you all out there. We're gonna keep on going, and we wouldn't be here without you. So we'll talk again soon. Man, you are one dedicated listener, sticking with us all the way through to the very, very end. Please know that this podcast dies without you. And we invite you to share how the episode is impacting you, along with your thoughts, questions, and suggestions. You have been gracious with your time, so we added social media links in the show notes to make it super easy for you to connect with us. Be kind to yourself, stay cool, and we'll talk at you next time.