Playing the Long Game: A Coaching conversation, examining the implications of instant and delayed gratification

SPEAKER_03 0:00

I'm afraid that me committing to that four-person maintenance job is going to bleed over into my relationship. You know, I'm gonna be at work all the time. I've mentioned that I would be I I would I mentioned to myself and to some colleagues that I'd be the next Reynaldo, and they called Reynaldo the contractor because he would do all the jobs and he was always staying late, always doing what everybody asked him to do. And I feel like I I might get into that zone and and I don't I'm scared for my relationship that I'd commit more to the job than to my wife.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

You're listening to the Learnins and Missteps podcast, where we intend to change the image of careers in the trades. We celebrate the real men and women who have built careers in the construction industry by bringing their personal stories straight to you. I began my career as a plumber's apprentice in the late 1900s. Over the last 26 years, I've had the fortune of meeting some of the most resilient, intelligent, and inspiring people who happen to be construction workers. My career path as a plumber has provided me with experiences and opportunities I thought were inaccessible. And I want you to know that the trades are a place where dreams can come true. These stories are brought to you by three brothers who share a mother. I am Jesse, your host. Our in-house writer is Ernest, aka La Voz. Hello. And our co-host, Renee. What's up? Y'all ready? Yes, sir. Dale. What's happening, LM family? Super glad to have you back. We've got a pretty deep conversation today between Renee and myself, in which Renee seeks counsel about making a significant career choice. It takes some digging, but the conversation reveals what Renee truly values. And as he hears those words come out of his mouth, he realizes that those things that he values supersede the dollar amount that he was distracted by. And like any coaching session, there's always more to the problem. So tune in and hit us up on our social media stuff and let us know how this conversation helped you see things in a different light. And one last thing. We've set up a Patreon account for those of you who want to further contribute to our mission of changing the image of careers in the trades. Signing up at patreon.com slash learnins and missteps will get you access to exclusive content and your names in the opening credits of the video versions of these episodes. Yeah, you heard me right. We got that fire for you, baby, on YouTube. Love y'all, and here we go. All right, so we got another bank episode. We're gonna be talking about the long game. Mr. Renee has a thought and a question around that. So, what's on your mind, my man?

SPEAKER_03 3:13

So I got a question. I'm in a situation right now, and I'm thinking, how do I play the long game here? Is this even a long game situation? So let's get into what that is. My foreman's awesome. He had a talk with my superintendent, and he was telling him, I've been putting in a lot of extra work that I don't need to do, throwing out ideas and sharing ideas on how to make our whole team better. And my foreman believes that what I've been doing deserves more money or a position. And he even told me that he was like, You could take my money and you can trade meme spots with him. So he's awesome for that. And he was talking, he was having this conversation with my my superintendent, and my superintendent mentioned that, well, maybe he doesn't have to wait for you to retire. Maybe maybe he can go to the maintenance side of our company because they were doing a batch of interviews for a four-person on the maintenance side. That batch of interviews didn't really bear fruit. Like they didn't, they they said that they didn't find anybody that they like or like that they that was qualified. And he was saying that maybe I have a good shot at it. I I'm I wasn't privy to this. My my foreman just let me know because he was explaining how he believes in me. So my question is if they asked me today, hey Renee, you're gonna start freaking Monday as the leak detection foreman, I'm like, all right, cool. I'm all about it. I'm super confident in that. You know, there's there's obviously gonna be some pitfalls that I'm gonna have to cover or whatever, but I'm confident with that. I'm comfortable being the leak detection four person. On the other side, the maintenance four-person position, that's the position where they're doing the actual repairs, they're not detecting leaks, they're repairing leaks. Okay, and and I would have to be in charge of large projects potentially on large mains where people's lives are at risk. And that thought scares me. I am scared, and I feel like even if I were to get the job and they and the the bosses decide I was worthy to bear that responsibility, it I honestly feel like it would only be a matter of time before they discover that I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Because I'm super rusty, like I'm super, super rusty. I haven't done maintenance in a long time. And uh, you know, there there can be a large learning curve for me. My question is I mean, what what should I do? I mean, I know what I want to do, I want to wait for leak detection, but this opportunity is right here, too. I don't know what what do you think I should do?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Well, the first question is regarding the the repair or the maintenance form and role, what I heard you say, one, you're rusty, and two, you're scared. Are those the only reasons that are making you apprehensive about going after that?

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Uh, those are the two largest reasons. One smaller reason, I mean, I shouldn't say smaller, but one reason that I may or may not happen, it might just be in my head, is that uh the maintenance side of our company, it requires like a large commitment. Like a lot of times, the you know, you get on a job and things go south, man, and you gotta stay late, and which is fine, but I got two babies at home, and my wife, I'm afraid that me committing to that four-person maintenance job is going to bleed over into my relationship. You know, I'm gonna be at work all the time. I've mentioned that I would be I I would I mentioned to myself and to some colleagues that I'd be the next Reynaldo, and they called Reynaldo the contractor because he would do all the jobs, and he was always staying late, always doing what everybody asked him to do. And I feel like I I might get into that zone, and and I don't, I'm scared for my relationship that I'd commit more to the job than to my wife.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

That's a real thing. You absolutely need to consider it. I mean, one that sounds like that type of work lends itself to unpredictable schedules on a daily basis, and so that's one thing just inherent with the work, but the other part is you it sounds like you know yourself in that you would commit yourself to the work, and that I know that puts a burden on relationships. The only reason I know is because I'm not in one because I overcommit to work. Now, let's talk about the leak detection. It sounds, I mean, what I heard you say was your comfort, you know, it's really in your wheelhouse, you've got a high comfort level, it's a more uh stabilized environment where the schedule's more predictable. Are those the only reasons you would stay in that side of the business?

SPEAKER_03 8:29

No, um, man, and just in any any job I've ever had, having this leak detection job, I feel like it's been the most fulfilling job I've ever been in because they're asking me for ideas, they're actually on board with my ideas, they're listening to me. Not listening to me, but they're you know, they're giving me a shot. You know what I mean? Like, hey, uh, we have these problems. What do you think? They're asking me what I think. Nobody's ever asked me what the hell I think. It's super fulfilling because I can finally put my two cents in and it's paying off, and I can use these other skills that I have. Like, for example, the XL, my my knowledge of XL. I I typed I had to type up a Word document the other day. Like, I guess my computer savvy skills, what whatever that means, I get to use that too. It's more fulfilling. That's one of the reasons why I'd want to be the four-person as well. Is you know, I I feel like I've been laying a foundation for the future of my team. Or actually, or I mean, I shouldn't say laying it, but like being a big part of that, being a big part of the foundation for leak detection moving forward. I I've been given the opportunity to be one of the ones that lays that new foundation.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

And how do you feel about your team members?

SPEAKER_03 9:47

I'm comfortable with all my team members. Uh, I mean, I don't hate anybody, I mean, at the very least. Uh they're super I I think they're great. I think we have a great team.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Okay. So the question at hand, I think, is you want to be a foreman. People believe you have the capabilities to be a foreman, and the timing right now of you being a foreman on the leak detection crew is longer than being a foreman on the maintenance crew. Yeah, I'd have to wait longer. That brings us back to playing the long game. I don't have this answer for you. You have the answer, you've got to make the decision. And what we just did is we went through like the pros and cons of either department, being the foreman in either department, what that means. If the goal is to be a foreman, to say, look, mom, I'm a foreman, then that decision's easy. And I understand you're young, ambitious, you're an ambitious young man, and you want to promote, you want to make more money for the babies, for your family, right? Hopefully, you'll get a decent haircut with that extra money. Like, I get it. I I know I get it. You want to you want to advance and you have some skills that people are starting to recognize, and you want to be compensated for that. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Yeah, for sure, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Okay. And the sooner you're compensated for that, the better you feel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Okay. Now, being a foreman, I'm I'm assuming officially means more money, more status, more responsibility, more recognition.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yeah, more exposure.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

So those are important things, especially if you want them. Now we're talking about a matter of time. So if you just want to be a foreman, there's an avenue for that. And this is where you really got to think through what you want to do and what you're gonna do. You wanna be a foreman, instant gratification. I'm a foreman, it says so on my email signature, everybody knows it, my month, my check reflects it, therefore, I am a foreman. And then there's I am performing foreman type duties and contributing at a much higher level than my peers, but I don't have the recognition, I don't have the title, I don't have the pay, and that's the situation you're in now.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

What you want to do is get the status, the money, get the access. Tracking so far?

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Yeah, I'm tracking.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Okay. So now let's talk about what you're gonna do. What I heard you describe about your current team and the environment that you're in is they recognize you have ideas, they ask you for your ideas, and they even incorporate some of your ideas into the work.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

And people look to you as a see you as a resource now within that department.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Yeah, I would say so.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

And you'll it's also sounds like you're being challenged as an individual to get out of your comfort zone and learn and flex some of these skills that you've had in your back pocket and maybe weren't even fully aware of how valuable they were.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

How important, I think I heard you say it, but how important is that?

SPEAKER_03 13:09

To me, that's everything.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Okay. Now, if you go into the maintenance department and you get, uh look, mom, I'm team leader. You get the foreman title and and everything that comes with that. Will you have that list of things that we just talked about?

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Yes and no, at least not immediately.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Okay, let's talk about immediately. If you go over there, will you have those things?

SPEAKER_03 13:37

No, hell no.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

No, but they're meaningful, they mean a lot to you. So are you prepared to sacrifice those things?

SPEAKER_03 13:45

Man, that's a good one. Be see, and and that's that's where we get into the long game because I feel like yeah, I won't have it right away, but doesn't mean I can't grow into those things or establish those things over there.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

It could be so, but there is a time component associated with that. Now, if you stay with your current team, you have all of those things.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Right now. But what you don't have is the status, the check, the access. Yeah, that's correct. Okay. So are you prepared to sacrifice the status, the money, the access?

SPEAKER_03 14:27

Yeah, I don't mind playing the long game.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Okay. So then it really becomes a question of what means more to you. In this team that you're on, it's I think I heard you say that you're laying the foundation for what that department might look like in the future.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

And there's no guarantees, but you are playing a direct role in that situation.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Okay. What you're doing is you're clearing a path right now. There is no path currently, so you're clearing it. You're not getting paid for it. You're not being, I mean, there is some recognition, but it's probably local just within your team and your superintendent and your foreman. Well, at least that's what you're aware of. You don't know what further up the the further into the organization, what level of awareness they have on the value you're bringing to the group. So let's just think about how would you be would you be able to tolerate staying in this department, having the influence, having your ideas taken into account, having the relationships that you have, experiencing success as a team for the next five years, if that's all you had and didn't have a chance of being a foreman, could you tolerate that?

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Oh man, that's a good one. Because it yes and no, right? Because yes, I was thinking while I'm waiting, I can be working on developing my skills in a I mean, almost like uh what's the what's the word I'm looking for? Like a controlled environment.

SPEAKER_04 16:10

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Like I don't, yeah, I mean, I'm doing performance duties, but really if if you know pool pits the fan, I don't have I'm not gonna have the same responsibility my actual four-person does.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

So I'm kind of in a controlled little in a little bubble, really. I mean, and I can test these things out with not too much heartburn or anxiety. You know, I'm still just a regular guy. I'm not uh I'm not in a leadership position. The question was if it took about five years or whatever, yeah, would I be able to put up with it? Yeah, you know, I think yes. I think yes, because there's a lot of things I can do from now in five years that will help me even more when when it will help me like get grounded when I actually do get the job.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Okay, so yeah, I would say so. All right, so let's look at the other side of the coin. You go over to maintenance, you become the foreman there, with no influence, no no relationships, your ideas aren't taken into account, and the safety bubble's freaking gone. Could you go and be the foreman and not have any of those things for five years? With like no progress in those skills, correct.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Dang. Oh man. I mean, I would because I would have to, but it would be painful, it'd be very painful for sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Okay. Now let's shift from can to want. I think what I heard you say is yeah, you could in both scenarios, but do you want to?

SPEAKER_03 17:56

If you were to switch me over to maintenance foreman right now with the pay I'm getting right now, hell no. And I have to deal with all those things. Nah, definitely I would not do it. I would just stay where the heck I'm at. But it's like that money is a as a motivating, definitely a real motivating factor. And I was talking to my wife about that. Uh, I don't I don't care about the money per se. The money is important. What's motivating to me is like the freedom I would have, or the freedom I could acquire with that increase in pay. Like I was thinking, you know, imagine I can pay my car off because I'm not gonna go buy a new car, I'll just pay that off. Now I don't have a car payment anymore. These, you know, just pay pay things off, and I don't even have to worry about those kind of stresses anymore. And I can have that freedom now. Maybe the freedom of hey, well, if this foreman doesn't work out, I'll just go back. Or well, now I don't have any bills, you know, it doesn't matter what happens, you know. You know what I'm saying? Maybe that will alleviate that heartburn and anxiety I have for uh I might not make it, or I might not have all those um that bubble. Maybe that bubble won't be as important if I don't have those bills.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

But it's gonna take time to pay those bills. It's not like you're gonna get the role and then you're gonna pay off all the bills the next week on your first damn check.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

True. So the question still remains.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

My I mean my my quick answer is no, I don't I don't want to lose the bubble, I don't want to lose the influence and the sense of fulfillment.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

I don't want to lose that. So I don't know. I think you've answered your own question. What do you think? Yeah, I think so too. So how does all of this relate to playing the long game?

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Because like it's it was instant gratification, is if I go freaking take a leap of faith or and and just jump straight into the deep end right now, yeah. I mean, that's I'm instantly getting the money and status or whatever, but I'm losing all these things that are important to me. And I can have both if I just stay where I'm at because and I already have the the things that are important to me now, it's the and the money will come later. To me, that's how I understand how this is this relates to playing the long game.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Absolutely right. I mean, we're all all conditioned, or maybe not even conditioned, I think it's just a natural tendency to want instant gratification. I want it and I want it now, yeah, right? Like, give it to me, give it to me, babe. And you know, how is that evident? If you think about the the freaking level of credit card debt, why do we have credit card debt? We want the shit now. You know, we just talked about playing the long game in your career path. How much do we consider playing the long game financially in our personal finances? And what I mean by that is some of the pressure that you described was giving up, sacrificing the things that are important to me is something I would consider so I can get more money. And why is that more money or that amount of money enticing? Oh, because I have debt that I want to become free from. So why do we have debt? Because we bought shit that was maybe beyond our means. Rather, forget, it's not even clouded. We bought shit on credit. Yeah, like forget about what all the other stuff. The fact is, we bought it. On credit. So we really don't own it. The bank owns it. And I gotta pay those bills. So when we were making that purchase, were we thinking of the long game? Not all the time. I would agree with that 100%. Not all the time. Sometimes, like, screw it, I'll get it and I'll pay it off.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Yeah, like how are you gonna buy a house? You know, not everybody has $200,000 to drop day one on the house.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

But okay. But you need to live somewhere. But does it have to be a $200,000 house?

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Okay, and say I even got a $65,000 house. You know what I'm saying? It's not realistic to have that amount of money. It's like for example, myself in my situation, you know, I would love to play the long game for everything in the whole world. Um, but I I got a wife and kids, I need somewhere to live. And I don't have $100,000 or even $65,000 to drop. Hey, guy, I I got cash, I'm gonna buy the house right now. You know, I don't I I'll probably never have that.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

So let's chase that one down. Were you playing the long game when you were making those babies?

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Yeah, yeah. And then that's when we get into that, right? And and yeah, you're right. You're a whole you're 100% right about that. I was playing a different long game.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Hey, this is a rated PG show. Take it easy, buddy. This is real talk. We we've chased it down. Hey, I want to be a foreman. Why? Because I want more money, why so I can pay off my debt? Why? Well, because I've got kids. Why? Oh, because I needed instant gratification. Long game in our careers is a little easier to play for some people. If I'm not gonna get foreman by the end of the year, I'm quitting. You're not paying me for it, I ain't gonna do it. Yeah, so long game is really about decisions. When you're playing the long game, it's really how am I gonna invest my time and my skills and my decision making right now? And how is that going to play out in the next X amount of years? I like to use five years, right? That's what we did when you and I were discussing it. I'll give if I can, you mind if I share an example?

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

So when I was, I just, you know, I've been with my the company I'm with now in my day job just over two years. And I was with my previous employer for 17 years. Like that's longer than all of my marriages combined, longer than all serious relationships combined. I was with this company, they were my my family, right? I mean, you know how much time I spent at work, and I had this amazing opportunity that I knew with 100% zero doubt, I did not know how to do the job. I also knew it was gonna be a lot more money. I also knew that I was going to be leaving the people that I spent the last 17 years with. I was gonna be leaving them behind. And that was freaking, that was a real, like it was a really, really tough decision. Of course, my emotions were saying don't do it. Like, like that whole comfort zone thing, like, don't do it. Like, you got it 17 years stupid, and they have put up, they many, many, many companies would have fired my ass for the things that that my buddies over there put up with and and supported me through, right? Um, I was struggling immensely with with my alcohol addiction, and they were there for me, they supported me through that, and they invested in me. Man, if I think back, you know, the very first computer I ever bought, the CEO Harold McDowell gave me $500 to go buy my very first computer. Wow, like how amazing is that!

SPEAKER_02 26:11

That's freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

So, those that organization invested in me, they were my family. They they played a tremendous role in the person I am today, and I was gonna leave their ass. That's not cool. So, yeah, there were other things, right? I felt like I had hit a ceiling in my career, and the next step there was was really not what I wanted it to be. Like I felt I had outgrown it, but I didn't know what else I could do. And so this new company was man, I was gonna be traveling, you know, the central United States, Denver, Kansas City, uh, Omaha, Des Moines. Like, I've never traveled that way. And so I was gonna be able to build my network and and play at a whole nother level than I had ever played at. Make more money, right? All these things that were shiny, but getting back to the point of for me, the long game, I had like it would have been easy to say, hell yes, I'm gonna do that. More money, get to travel, wah, wah, wah, you know, more status, all this crap. But what I had to do was look at it through a harsh lens. And so this was how I framed the environment in my head. I said, let's assume I'm gonna go over there and I'm gonna have zero support. Why? Because I have no relationships in that organization, none whatsoever. It would be likely, very highly likely, that I would not have any support. I'd have to earn that. Yes, I'm gonna have zero support, nobody's gonna like me. I mean, yes, I'm hot, but it takes more than just being hot for people to like you, and I'm gonna fail miserably in the first year. And if all of those are true, no support, nobody likes me, and I'm just gonna crash and burn in the first year, without a doubt. Does the opportunity to learn and grow and have more exposure, is that opportunity big enough to tolerate that first year of misery? And my answer was yes. So then I said, okay, then I'm gonna be prepared for that misery, but I know that the opportunity to learn and grow and whatever, even if I do get fired, I will have learned so much and I would have connected with so many people that it was it would have been worth it. Now, I don't I say that, but I don't do that enough. Yeah, right? Like, yeah, I'll it's it's really easy, it's almost natural, second nature, to do it in a professional setting. In my career, I can do that. You that's how this whole conversation started. Playing the long game professionally, and so we went down your personal path, right? And learned that you know, you like making babies without thinking about the future.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yep. So if we chase down this, you know, very lot practical, logical thinking of playing the long game in my life, in my personal life, the answer is a resounding. I don't. I mean, maybe financially, yes. I got some money in the bank, and and part of that is because I mean, you've you we've talked about it before, living in this mansion that I live in. Right? Not really. I I choose to live in the house, one, because I'm cheap, but I don't pay, I own the house. I don't pay rent, I don't pay a mortgage, I pay taxes. I've got a 2012 pickup, I bought it used, my payment is freaking $300 a month, and that's really all the debt I have. So financially I can play the long game. Why? Because of the freedom that you're talking about. Now, I was in the same financial, I had the same financial handcuffs at when I was your age. But if I think about when I think about playing the long game with personal relationships and so and all of that stuff, I suck at it. I mean, you've told me, like, dude, yeah, you know, every time I tell you, hey, she dumped this one, dumped me, you're like, well, duh. Like, what did you do, duh?

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Or what did you do this time?

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yeah, yeah. What did you do this time? Wait a minute. I know why she dumped you, but what did you do?

SPEAKER_04 30:47

You know, like I didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Playing the long game, there's tremendous value in it. I I think, I mean, I maybe someday in the future, what I would like to learn how to do is to play the long game in all facets of my life. And I think you you you even the even asking the question of, hey, here's my situation, what should I do? Is part of playing the long game. Right? Because in that moment of instant gratification, in that moment of you making babies, right before that action started, you didn't call me and say, Hey, what should I do?

SPEAKER_04 31:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Right? We just do it. And so for people that are, you know, for our listeners that may be like, what the hell are y'all talking about? How do I even start that if you've never done it before? It starts by asking somebody else. And please don't call me before you're gonna get down with with you know sexy guys. Don't call me on that. Maybe think like maybe I shouldn't do this. What's the implications of what this could mean? But but when you find yourself in that that moment of instant that decision that says, Man, this really is gonna feel good, but I'm not sure. At that moment, call somebody, but who are you gonna call? Ghostbusters, ghostbusters, right? Like you gotta, we you gotta identify a mentor or a trusted advisor in your life, and Renee, you're just lucky that you have the ultimate mentor, advisor ever in me. But we haven't always had this dynamic. Am I wrong?

SPEAKER_03 32:34

No, no, you're right. It hasn't always been like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

So at some point, I started behaving myself appropriately, and you started saying, hey man, what do you think? And that's so I think that's a critical component of playing the long game. You we gotta have mentors, we gotta identify people in our life that we trust, that the way they live their life represents how you want to live your life in some form or fashion, maybe not entirely, but there's something about the way they carry themselves and conduct to conduct themselves on a daily basis that you aspire to.

SPEAKER_03 33:11

I used to think that anybody who's above me or you know in a higher position to me or in a position that I want to be in, they're a good mentor. Like, you know, uh they made it, so I need to do what they did, or I need to, you know, mirror their actions, and that's totally not that's totally false. Like the just because they're in a a higher status position, it it doesn't mean mean that because I I I've worked with some peop some people that are higher than me, and they'll and I've asked for them, I've asked for their advice, or how did you do it? What do you gotta do? And like what I remember hearing one advice is is that if you want to be if you want to be superintendent, when you're a foreman, you need to write people up, and that's how you make it. Like honest, not everybody who's higher than you has a good advice, or and and then even like for example, my foreman, I will I totally aspire to be similar to him, and how he treats his guys. He has a lot of characters that it's very rare. A lot of places I've worked at frontline management that I've worked for, they it was usually like you know, it was my way or the highway. Like it was like they needed to prove a point so that they can climb to the next level, almost as if they were stepping on you to make it to the next level. And and I don't and I've I've heard that from people. You gotta step on people to make it. I've literally heard that. And I don't want to be like that. I want to believe there's a better way where you uplift the people around you.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

I'm with you 100%. And my experience is the trajectory of career advancement is steeper when the people around me are developing and growing. That takes a whole different approach, and you just touched on it, right? Where a lot of people aren't used to it, or rather, conventional thinking says I've got to enforce the rules, I've gotta, you gotta write people up, you gotta fire people, you gotta be a hard ass, you gotta make people do their job, and when you do that, you're going to advance. That is a way, it is not the way, it's not the only way. It's definitely easier. It sucks, but it's easier, and there's very few people out there that understand how to grow their career as a result of developing people. That's a whole that's a gigantic subject. Um, but there's a lot of people out there that know how to elevate in their career on the backs of others. Let's not judge those people that do it that way. That's what they experience, right? They're doing what they know how they're doing what they know. That's that's it. They're doing what they know, and it's it's our responsibility to show the rest of the people that there's a different way. I mean, I'd love to say it was a better way, except that there's a large number of leaders and managers out there that are horrible. And I would say that that that number, that quantity, is greater than the ones that really focus on developing people. So it's hard to say that this way is better when fewer people are doing it.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Uh, you know, I worked with a guy that told me, Jesse, I'd rather work for a hard ass than a dumbass. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. All right. Sometimes that person in authority in this line of thinking of calling them a dumbass, but really when I'm responsible and empathetic, that person that I'm calling a dumbass is really just doing everything they can with all of their power and knowledge and experience. They're just trying to keep their freaking head above water. They got into a situation that was beyond them, and nobody equipped them with the tools and the expertise to do it appropriately. So they're just doing whatever they can to maintain. Do you think they feel good about themselves?

SPEAKER_03 37:25

Oh, no, definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

No, they're doubting themselves, they're always looking behind their back, they're worried about getting fired every five minutes. I mean, yeah, I'll call them a dumbass, and that makes me feel better about myself, but they're suffering. And no one's ever admitted that, but that's what I believe. They're the behavior that they're exhibiting is is self-preservation. It's the it's a defense mechanism because they really they don't know that it's okay to say, I don't know. Yeah, they don't know that it's okay to say, hey, Renee, I have no, I what do you think? Because I really don't know what the hell we should do next. They think they have to have all the answers, they think they always have to be right. They don't know any, like that that's just their world. We got off on a little tangent there. Back to mentors. That's how we got here. There are plenty of leaders, hell, let's there for our younger listeners, there are plenty of adults that aren't doing the right thing, that aren't behaving the way you want to behave. And when when we discover that, that's an important awakening. That not every manager, not every leader, not every executive, not every adult, we should not aspire to be like them. Like it's not an automatic qualification to be a mentor that you're above a certain age or that you have a certain title. What you need to look for is people that care, the way they carry themselves or function, navigate life on a daily basis. If that resonates with you, connect to that person because they may not be an official authority, right? I think about Gandhi. Have you ever seen the Gandhi movie or read or heard anything about Gandhi? Yeah, I've seen the movie. He changed a country. What was his title? Um, I don't remember. Uh he was a lawyer by by education, he had no official authority over that country. He had no, he was not the manager, he was not the leader, he was not the father. He was just a dude. I mean, there's a lot more to him, but he was just a dude that carried himself in such a way that inspired people, and people followed him, and he changed a freaking nation. And so it's not about formal authority, it's about look at the people in your life, in your surroundings, and if they carry themselves in such a way that inspires you, that you aspire to be like, connect with them and ask them for their thoughts, for their insight, for their advice. And and also don't limit yourself. You can have more than one, right? It's not like dating. If you have more than one, now you're a dog. Like people have different skill sets and different strengths. So find the skill sets and strengths that you want to develop and find people that embody that and go to them. And that's the first step into playing the long game. Getting outside of yourself, seeking insight from others that have experience or that carry themselves the way you want to carry yourself or that is impressive to you. That like taking that pause, the pause of instant gratification to think a little more about it. That's the start of playing the long game. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 41:07

I got a question, trying to figure out how to word it. Let's say you you're trying to play the long game and you found a mentor, the mentor is on your team, okay, and you're trying to learn from this guy, somebody else in the front-end management position sees this and gets uncomfortable with you being under this person's mentorship and they don't like it. How do you navigate that? How do you play the long game in that?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

So that's a relationship thing. The hard thing to do, and I've I'm gonna say it's the first thing that you should do, but I know how hard it is and how often it's not done. Feels like in this situation, this other person, the other foreman, I guess, is kind of showing signs that he's that he doesn't like this dynamic for whatever cot little comments, his behavior, whatever it is, right? All this stuff's happening, and you're thinking, like, oh, this dude's got a problem. How do you know that he has a problem? Like, you think he has a problem. How do you confirm it?

SPEAKER_03 42:10

Well, you gotta ask.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Ah, so have you?

SPEAKER_03 42:15

I I haven't asked. Okay, so that's a no. I haven't asked, so no. That's a no. But this guy, the other foreman, has said it that that guy's a bad influence, you don't want to be like that guy because of these reasons, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Well, I mean, again, it's easy for us to condemn people without understanding their perspective. And that's like that's not a bad thing. I mean, it's not cool, but it's you know, we'll just leave it there. That's not cool. The right thing to do, the thing that will help you grow, and when I say right, I mean healthy in that it will help you grow as an individual and a leader, is to ask them, give them the respect of saying, hey man, I'm getting the sense that you're not cool with this situation. Like Am I do is there something I can do to to fix that? Or is that even the way you feel? Because you don't know for sure. You're assuming that based on some of the interactions and comments, that that's how they feel, and you may be right, but the healthy thing, the big thing to do is ask them. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 43:27

I'm I'm trying to picture myself asking that question, right? Like, how do you feel? What do you what do you think about this? I'm I'm getting this vibe. Am I right? You know, or or or what do you think about this vibe that I'm picking up? Is it is it legit? You know, and I I'm I'm assuming because I've I've asked this guy other sensitive questions before, and it kind of got deflected into something else like, nah, it's not like that. And and but I'm still getting that vibe. That negative vibe. Yep. I've already confronted it and like I don't get a straight answer sometimes, and it kind of gets deflected.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Okay. So does he why does it matter that you're getting this negative vibe? Why does it matter to you?

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Uh because in the event, I mean, not even in the event, even now. I mean, we're all we're on the same team, all of us. I I guess, damn, that's a good question. Why does it matter to me? I I guess I just don't want him to feel maybe jealous or something that I'm not under his mentorship. There's a lot of good qualities on the other foreman as well. Yeah. Uh like I refer to them as grandpa, the one foreman's grandpa, and the other foreman is the uh ambitious goal getter. But he's also kind of like a scorched earth, you know, he he he leaves a trail of destruction, not destruction, but maybe bad taste in your mouth. I don't like that, but I do like his ambition and his work ethic. Yeah, so I don't want him to feel jealous and then just kind of cut me off from the mentorship he he brings.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

So what I heard is you don't want him to feel left out, and you also value some of his traits. Yeah, for sure. Does he know that?

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Uh yeah, I doubt it. I really doubt it. I was thinking about that the other day because I was confronting him about some things I didn't like and some miscommunications we had. I wasn't being ugly, we were literally just having a conversation. Say I got that vibe, like, yeah, you're talking mess about me, but what about this guy? Uh-huh. You know, so that tells me like he's maybe feeling left out that I'm thinking the other form is perfect and he's crappy. Because I've never I haven't communicated to him that I find value in our relationship too.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

So if if you combined the truth of the value you see in your relationship with him and and him being a part of the group of the team, and the question about why do you hate him, how do you think that would impact the interaction?

SPEAKER_02 46:10

I think I I mean I think it would just make the interaction better.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

Maybe he would become a little less defensive in the future because like I I've communicated to him that I think you're great too. So maybe that wall will come down. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Now we don't know any of those things right now, right? So what would it take to know? Yeah, I gotta ask. Okay. So you gotta ask, but are you prepared to?

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Yeah, yeah. I I'm totally prepared to. I don't know how to ask it. Like, do I just call them and be like, hey, out of nowhere, you know, or do I wait for a situation where we're together, or you know what I'm saying? Like that, I don't know when am I gonna do it. I guess I've been guilty of waiting for the perfect opportunity, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Ah, and has it come yet?

SPEAKER_03 47:02

No.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

So when do you think it's gonna come?

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Yeah, who knows? You never know. So I maybe I'll just make the opportunity. There you go. What else?

SPEAKER_02 47:14

I think I'm good. I think that's all my question.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Well, there you go. Playing the long game. I think we cut, we definitely answered your questions, Renee. And hopefully we gave some insight to others, uh, to our listeners about what we mean by playing the long game and and they can relate to this situation. I think what you're experiencing is something that we've all experienced in the past or have experienced multiple times in our journeys through this amazing world. So we'll wrap it up with that. Man, you are one dedicated listener sticking with us all the way through to the very, very end. Please know that this podcast dies without you. And we invite you to share how the episode is impacting you, along with your thoughts, questions, and suggestions. You've been gracious with your time, so we added social media links in the show notes to make it super easy for you to connect with us. Be kind to yourself, stay cool, and we'll talk at you next time.