Episode 10: Roughnecks in Construction: Building foundations in concrete and leadership with Jim Olmstead, a structural concrete professional- An exploration of doing what it takes to change yourself and develop others

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You're listening to the Learnins and Missteps podcast, where we intend to change the image of careers in the trades. We celebrate the real men and women who have built careers in the construction industry by bringing their personal stories straight to you. I began my career as a plumber's apprentice in the late 1900s. Over the last 26 years, I've had the fortune of meeting some of the most resilient, intelligent, and inspiring people who happen to be construction workers. My career path as a plumber has provided me with experiences and opportunities I thought were inaccessible. And I want you to know that the trades are a place where dreams can come true. These stories are brought to you by three brothers who share a mother. I am Jesse, your host. Our in-house writer is Ernest, aka La Vos. Hello. And our co-host, Renee. What's up? Y'all ready? Yes, sir. Dale. Hey Jesse, what kind of frame of mind does this episode lead me into? Well, have you ever wondered why your instructions aren't being followed? So if you've been in that situation, we got something for you. Some other cool stuff we're going to be able to get from here. Some really simple, deceivingly simple principles for success. And you also get to hear a couple of guys whine about knowledge work and why it's tiring. Like they don't work with their hands anymore and they they they try real hard to prove why they're tired after not really putting their hands on anything. In all of that, we uncover a remedy for email and text drama. So you ready to hear it? Let's do it. I would put in place one specific recipe for all tortillas to be made in the country. I would all tortillas flour or corn. All flour tortillas would have to be made using the same recipe because there's some shitty tortillas out there, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

What do you think about that one?

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Jesse for president.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Oh, we're in trouble, baby.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

Uh if I was president, if I was president, my executive order would be to like have you have to add in your uh public school curriculum some kind of leadership training.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Go with yours though, Brene. I want to hear yours.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

Uh so I just started reading uh the dichotomy of leadership. Have you read it?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Yeah, so I just finished Extreme Ownership. After reading Extreme Ownership, you know, I was like, yeah, like I'm gonna own everything. I was like going super hard about it. I I noticed like I started to rub people the wrong way a little bit. I feel like I went overboard, and that's where the dichotomy comes in. Like, yeah, it's cool to be a hard charger, but there's a balance. So, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

It's a true pendulum theory. So if you're going too far to the right, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh man, man, man, I'm I'm too hard, and then you go all the way back to the left, and then you're too soft. And I'm meaning that by you don't care as much, you're letting things go. You gotta find that middle balance, and that's the hardest thing. That's the dichotomy of leadership. Man, I'm guilty of it too. I'll get into a meeting and I'm hard charged, and and then all of a sudden you can feel your blood pressure going because you know it, and you're like, I gotta step off. Take that step back. That's how I feel about it.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

How did you learn about this? Like, when did you decide to start like learning about this stuff?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Back in my history of just me being me, I was young, dumb. I would chase the dollar. I would just try to find what was right because I didn't know what I wanted to do. Okay, I've got a degree as a civil engineer, I was in the military, I was driving back and forth from Austin to San Antonio, and a buddy of mine, my neighbor, and he said, Hey man, you gotta check out this podcast. I've never listened to a podcast, it was Mike Ritland's podcast. I started listening to it, and I'm like, man, these news things are better than listening to the radio music. And he actually had Jocko on there, and I listened to Jocko, and I'm like, this dude's inspirational. Can I listen to his book? And from that moment on, it changed my life on my perspective on work. You know, am I the 4 30 in the morning guy? Yes, I am. Getting ready for this podcast. I'm on my computer at five o'clock this morning, sending out emails, probably making people mad in hell. But you gotta find what's inspirational to you. Simple but not easy. Yeah, simple. You just go do it, but it's not easy to do.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

Deceivingly simple. But damn it, I gotta get out of bed. Damn it, I gotta put my running shoes on. Damn, well, let me. I'm just gonna send one email, and then two hours later.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Man, where'd these two hours go?

SPEAKER_03 5:09

That laptop is like a black hole sometimes. You open it up, and then it just sucks all the time and energy out of your day, straight into your outlook.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Come home at night after work and I'll sit on the couch, and I'm like, I know I could go spend 30, 45 minutes to go work out, go do something. But I'm just so mentally exhausted from work. I don't physically do the work anymore. Mine's all in my head, it's all teaching guys, it's all filling out change orders, reports, walking decks.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

I got a question about that. So you're saying you don't you don't do the physical work anymore? Like, can you flesh out for me like because there's like this common misconception that as you progress in your career, it the work gets easier, right? Like as a laborer, you're looking up at your superintendent, like, yeah, of course you're not tired, or of course you're telling me to go faster because you don't work, you know? So, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

So that's that's a great, that's a great topic. I don't know if Jesse told you enough, but I used to work with Turn. I was training a superintendent at that time. He was a place and finish guy, carpenter, carpenter foreman, leadman, and now all of a sudden he's a superintendent. He says, Man, I thought your guys' job was so easy. He's like, How do you get all this stuff done? I said, It's time management. You gotta find the time. You gotta be the first one here and the last one to leave. You have to put in that time because these guys rely on you. In return, you have to rely on your men, your leaders, your foreman. You have to give them responsibility. Don't hold it all in your head.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

I I would say what taxes your mental energy, right? From your transition from working out in the trenches, putting your hands on the work to now planning and managing and tracking execution of the work, the drain really comes from two parts. One is you have a high-level idea of what the outcome, the overall outcome is, but you've got to be able to translate that in the simplest terms so that everybody in the organization understands what their role is and what good looks like. That's not easy.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

You guys just exampled this morning because it seems so simple.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

I told Renee, hey, follow me and I'll walk you through it. In my brain, what I meant is come over here, I'll give you the little adapter for your headset for your phone while your laptop is shutting down because we're having laptop issues. And once we make that exchange, then go back to the other room so we don't have an echo. What he understood was totally different. Like, because all I said was, come follow me, I'll walk you through it.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

I understood, come over here, I'll walk you through it as you log on to the phone. And then while you're on the phone, I'll walk you through your laptop.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Total disconnect. And so it was easy for me to say, I'll walk you through it and know what I meant. It would have taken more time and energy to to break that up so that we both had a clear understanding of what was what we were about to do.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

So there's that that's not easy because it's all in your mind. But if that lowest person in that job site does not understand what the job is, the task is at hand, you're never gonna get it accomplished correctly on time. You have to break it down, you have to explain that to everybody.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

And then when you fail to break it up in clear chunks for everybody, the next phase of the kick in the mouth is now you gotta spend time explaining what you really meant. And it's like, oh shit, no, what'd you do? That's not what we're oh, let me and we we lived it out, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:49

And then you get mad at them, and you yes, because you're like, Well, you told me to do this, and you're like, I just want to choke you, but it's like, oh wait, that was 100% on me because I didn't give you clear, concise directive.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

So that is taxing, right? Because yes, I want to choke them, but I can't choke them, and then I get mad, right? And I let people know, like physically, even though I may not say what I'm thinking, physically, they know I'm irritated, and so there's some damage that erodes the relationship that's a valuable relationship. So now I gotta go repair that, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

And I do that a million times a day.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

We do that like over and over throughout the day, and brother, it's tiring, it takes energy, very different, very different um muscles, but they're still they're still tiring. It looks uh easy because we don't have our hands on the tools, Renee to what what you're recognizing is with every level of work, there is complexity and and difficulty in all of those levels, but it just looks different. And if you haven't experienced it, you can't you can't appreciate it, and that's okay. You know, on the downside, there are some leaders, Jim, that we've worked with in our careers that really don't do a damn thing. It's true. So, Jim, what do you want our audience to know about you?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

I'm a simple person. My goal in life is I want to please everybody. I want everybody to be happy with me. I am my own worst critic. I want to make people happy. I don't like people being mad at me or disappointed in me.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

That's really important to you that you don't want to disappoint people.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Correct. Every single day I'm failing at something. So, how do you get better at it? I dry and I dry and I try.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

What would you want your entry-level employees to know about you?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Entry level, I will give you the shirt off my back. If you ask me for help, I will help you. Biggest thing for me, if anybody wanted to know and you and you were to come work with me, not for me. There's only a couple rules. Show up on time, be respectful, and don't be late.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yes, yes, I like that. Come on time, be respectful and don't be late.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Well, you know, don't be late.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

That you know, be show up on time, very valuable thing, right? Um, we touched on it, right? Renee and I were late. Jim was on the call probably 20 minutes before the call was scheduled to start, and then sent us a reminder text to say, hey, if you ain't 15 minutes early, you're late. And so being on time. I I when I was out in the field, there was a period of time very early in my career where the job had to be at the job site at seven o'clock. And so because I was in the parking lot at seven, I considered that to be on time. What do you think about that, Jim?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Oh no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

All right, so hey Jesse, come here.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Let's go have a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Hey, what time does the job site start? What time are you supposed to be on site? Seven o'clock. Okay. What's your what's your job title, Jesse?

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Plumbers helpers. My first year, man.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Plumber helper. Okay. Yep. Where are all your tools at, Jesse?

SPEAKER_03 12:10

They're in the back of the truck. They're in my toolbox.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Are you ready to work at 7 o'clock? No, but I'm here. Okay, that's good. But how about that? How about Renee over here? Renee's waiting on you. It's now 7.03. Time is money, right? 7 o'clock means 7 o'clock. But you're trying to teach, let's just hype a you're in your fourth year. Renee's in his first year, and you're now his mentor. How does that look? Jesse's showing up at 7 o'clock, but Renee's there at 6:30. Well, hey, Renee knows I need to sign all this paperwork. I got pretest plans to sign. I got to go through a safety walk for something. I got to go inspect all these scissor lifts that I'm working on. Oh, wait, I'm going to be on the forklift today. I got to check that out. It's 7 o'clock. So by the time you get started, it's now 7:45. We know how plumbers work. They're 7 at 8:30. I had to fill that jabbing. Sorry. Being on time is the most important part of your day. Because if you can't be on time, you have failed. The very first thing in the day, the very first thing that really impacts your life is be on time. Yep. When you're not on time, that little bit of trust goes away.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

Ah, that is a fantastic point.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

My dad made bread his entire life.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Bread? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Yes. My dad was a baker. That man would be there an hour before his shift. He worked an hour away from home. So I learned a lot of that from him. That has never left my body. It has never left my mind. It drives me nuts. I love my wife with all my heart. I hate being late. When I'm in a rush, it I get anxiety. When I know we're playing a softball game at 6 30 and it's getting close to 6 o'clock, I get I get nervous. I'm and stuck in traffic. It drives me. I have to be early. Girl, Renee, you're gonna ask me a question.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

Yeah, in my experience working in the field, you know, I've been under some disgruntled four persons before. They might have felt jaded because you know they applied to be superintendent or something and they didn't get it, right? So now they're kind of starting to show up late or show up in the parking lot at seven, but they were supposed to clock in at seven, right? And then just like you said, now they're getting tools ready and have to do all the safe teaching, all that stuff. But there's a four-person and they have people under them, right? And we kind of we kind of touched a little bit earlier on you were talking about decentralized command, how you gotta explain to you the people that are working with you in the the more entry levels, right? So that they can teach the junior. But how do you how do you do that? Like, you know, how do you because you can't talk to everybody, you know? You can't talk to if you were to talk to every single person that was late every day, well, how could you function, you know?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

You have to build a trust in the person.

SPEAKER_04 15:12

How?

SPEAKER_01 15:13

How do you build trust by having a conversation? You have to explain why it's important. Now, if it's a habitual person that's continuously in late, then you got to pull that guy off to the side. Never belittle anybody in front of a team. Be respectful. Respect for people, man. It goes a long way. And if you are the apprentice and your boss is late all the time, talk to him about it. Hey, Jesse, I'm relying on you to be here on time because I'm learning from you. If you continue to be late, what am I really learning?

SPEAKER_03 15:47

Well, another thing that Jim touched on was you know, you got to trust and you got to give responsibility. Share the responsibility. When you when you give somebody responsibility, you also have to give them authority. This is your scope. This is the thing that I need you to own and make it happen. These are the expectations, this is and this is the timeline, right? This is when we need it done. They're probably gonna mess something up, and that's okay because that's your job as a leader. Help identify the weak point and coach them on that weak point. Thinking that your your plan is gonna be executed to perfection early in your career, it it's it's a falsity, right? You gotta practice and figure it out. You also have to start building your skills as a leader. Leading is really about developing people. And when you give people responsibility and authority and give them the space to make their own decisions and make some mistakes, uh that provides the venue for you to help develop them. But you gotta create that space. You gotta let them go, you gotta let them mess up. Keep them in the boundaries because you're a supervisor, you gotta go make sure, you know, safety without a question, there's no deviation. You make sure everybody's gonna go home better than they showed up, nobody's gonna get hurt, but some of the decision making on how they're gonna do it, leave that to them, right? Let them fail. I don't know about you, Jim, but me, pain, and failure have been my best teachers my entire life. Yeah, and I I had to have some of the same failures over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Every single day I fail. You gotta be humble enough to understand it.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

To learn from it, right? Because it can be a failure and it could be it can be there's benefit in that if you're humble enough to examine, reflect, and learn from what you that decision you made and adjust going forward. So, Jim, you mentioned you mentioned softball. How how'd you get into so? I had the privilege of playing it in a tournament, mostly watching, because you know, uh, you know, I was a spectator in the dugout. I had special access, I guess. Um you're a pretty darn good ball player, man. How'd how'd you get into playing softball?

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I've played I've played ball my entire life. Yeah, through I mean, growing up, I played baseball. High school played baseball. I played on the all-army softball team out in uh Europe when I was where I was stationed.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Did you did you have any baseball cards made of you?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

No, not at all. I'm not that good. We play uh Fridays, Sundays, and Tuesdays right now.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

Still playing right now.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah, I still play ball. You have to you have to find time for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

I struggle with that big time. For example, I I was uh getting into boxing, but like I I feel like I failed to to properly manage my time because I was going to boxing um Monday through Friday when the gym was open, right after work, and then from six to eight, I was boxing, and then it was like a 20-minute drive home. So I don't get home till 8 20. I eat, and then you know, maybe I'm awake for like 30 more minutes and then I slept. So I have I have a wife and two kids, and uh I felt like because of my consistent time to I guess put my family first, like I felt like my marriage I was having a lot of marriage problems at the time. You know, my daughter was born and like she she started to grow like distant from me. She wouldn't want me to carry her and stuff, and like you know, because like I was a stranger or something, because I was never home. I was always at the gym and then work. So, you know, I I didn't know how to properly manage that time, so I ended up just quitting because you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

So were you showering? Did you take quite showers? Uh, maybe that's why if you didn't carry her.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

So, Renee, what's important to you? What is the important aspect of your day? Is it your wife, your kids, work? Is it boxing? You gotta set your priorities. If boxing is still important to you, you have to explain to her why it's important to you. If your wife wanted you to be home, you gotta be home because that's what's important.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

So, Jim, what were your earliest career aspirations?

SPEAKER_01 20:16

I really didn't have any. I always want to do better. Do I want to be a CEO of a big big time company? No. I want to teach people.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

And so, what was it that lit that fire? Because you say you don't have you didn't have career aspirations, but man, every time I'm around you, there's a fire going on there. Uh uh, where did that come from?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Some people think that I'm kind of standoffish. I'm too hard charging because I I am a hard charging guy.

SPEAKER_04 20:44

So Jesse was telling me that you started off doing concrete.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, I'm uh I am a structural concrete project manager superintendent. So I build high-rise buildings.

SPEAKER_04 20:54

What was your first job ever?

SPEAKER_01 20:57

McDonald's.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

McDonald's. How did you go from McDonald's to project manager?

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Then it was Piggly Wiggly. You guys know what Piggly Wiggly is?

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Oh, I know what Piggly Wiggly is. My daughter's nickname is Piggly Wiggly.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

I was a beggar. I've had so many different jobs. I I worked at a car dealership where I detailed cars, joined the military, worked while I was in college, and that's really what got me into construction. Was I've always been a builder during my high school in the summer, as I'd go work on re-roofing a house, residing a house, putting in windows. Went through college and got a job as designing house, but then I transitioned into a concrete company up in Wisconsin and really just loved concrete. There's so many different aspects in concrete, it's amazing. And the economy kind of went down in 2006, 7 up there in Wisconsin before it really hit down here in Texas, and I moved down to Austin. Been working in the concrete industry ever since.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

How would you entice a young lady or Young man looking to make a career, how would you sell the concrete industry to them? What would you tell them about it?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

You're gonna work a lot of hours, plenty of overtime, plenty of overtime. When you're getting into like the structural concrete sides of it, we are the rough decks of everybody, right? In the oil field. We are the rough concrete. We are the we drive the job. The other trades cannot do anything without the concrete guys. So we run the schedules, we we coordinate a lot of the MEP sleeve trades, the reinforcing guys. So it's not an easy job to do, and it's hard to promote that. So here's where my difficulty comes into play. I don't speak Spanish. Very, very, very limited Spanish. 95% of my staff speak Spanish and don't speak English. So that's a hard thing to do. I like to motivate people. I love to get in the morning and be an inspirational speech. You know, you go over there and you talk to the guy. Hey, can you translate that for him? And then you get responses back. You might pick up on a word or two. How do you translate your message, your inspiration to want to get somebody in there? So I've tried to learn Spanish. It's hard. I I don't know, I don't know where to stop.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Duolingo. There's an app. It's called Duo D-U-O-L-I-N-G-O.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

I'll check it out. I just put it on my notes.

SPEAKER_04 23:30

I have that app too. It's really good because it starts you off by teaching you like everyday conversational things. So it's not like you're learning some random ass stuff like you're never gonna say. It's like you know, hands-on, like you you can use this like tomorrow and talk to somebody.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

But you asked Jesse how to you get the people into the concrete trade. That's a hard thing to do. In the Texas area, it's very hard thing to do, especially if you're a white guy. It is extremely hard because it's it's all about well, my brother's looking for a job. Can he come aboard? Senior superintendent and I were just speaking about this yesterday. It's very hard to find people like ourselves to come in and build and do what we do. You might have your management staff, but the actual physical job itself is the hardest part. Trying to find the people for it. And I mean, that's that's in every industry right now. Trying to find people.

SPEAKER_04 24:24

How did you find the people you have now?

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Word of mouth. You hire a superintendent. The superintendent then hires a foreman. A foreman now has six people that he's always dealt with before. They jump ship all day long. There's no loyalty anymore. But there's a reason why people jump ship. I'd like to sit down. If I were to go back to my former self and ask, why did you leave? You know, I still don't have that answer to this day. I know I was chasing the money, but why did I really leave?

SPEAKER_03 24:53

Well, you bring up an important point, right? Like, well, there's a few, because it's not easy. That work is not easy work. You think of the concrete guys out there, the men and women that are doing that work, they rarely are working under shade, right? Like plumbers, you know, us plumbers, we get to work in the shade, we get to work in the AC sometimes, right? A lot of times we're out there under the sun. But concrete people, they're always in the sun. They're all like they there, it's it just being the exposure to the elements is almost 100% of the time. So the work is not easy. The other part, Jim, that you touched on is and and and I wish more managers and leaders would take ownership of their portion of this. We get it's easy to say that there is no loyalty, but think about who I I want to think about who I'm loyal to.

unknown 25:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

I'm loyal to the people that that listen to me, uh, that make me feel valued because they're giving me the time to hear my stuff, my pain. I'm loyal to the people that invest in me, that that contribute to my learning and my growth. I'm loyal to the people that support me when I am having trouble and I need some help. And I know, man, I've worked with in any trade, not just concrete, but in any trade, I've worked with people that were like, oh, you need Friday off? Uh, just go ahead and take, just tear your ass, kick rocks. We don't need you back. Or, or, hey man, you know, this this tool that I have, it's it's worn down. Yeah, and it's causing me to do a lot of extra stuff that's not necessary. And the response is, man, stop whining, stop being a prima donna, just go out there and make it happen. And so the leaders create this environment where as a worker, I don't feel appreciated. So, you know what? If they're gonna pay me a dollar more and treat me like crap, hey, at least I'm getting a dollar more or a quarter more, right? I'd rather work somewhere that, you know, if I'm gonna be treated like turd, shit, pay me more, you know. And and then on the other side of it is what's the development plan? You know, um, I've been I've been fortunate to work with I worked for TD Industries for a little bit, and it was clear that there was a pathway if I chose that there was a pathway to go from apprentice to whatever level in the organization I wanted to go to. Right, naturally I'd have to commit myself, I'd have to sacrifice and I had to learn some stuff, but there was a pathway, and now the the vast majority of of specialty contractors out there do not have a pathway. No. That that concrete finisher out there, that form builder out there, the only thing that they can see, and really the only thing that that company is presenting to them is the opportunity to keep doing the same damn thing. And and so if that's the case, why would I stay? Yeah, you know, so I'm not saying that that poor concrete guys, right? I'm saying that there's both parties have an onus, the worker and and the leaders within the organization. And because the leaders are leaders, they have a greater responsibility to put something in place that that creates an environment that people don't want to leave.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

But here's the difference. You brought up a good point. There's a difference between leaders and managers.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Oh, tell me about that. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Some people just manage, they don't lead. You gotta lead by example. That's number one. If you're the superintendent or if you're the foreman or you're the project manager, grab a broom. Your lowest laborer out there. If he's seeing that that superintendent's pushing a broom, I've had it happen to me. Well, hey, Jim, let me go take that from you. No, I you have something else to do. I'm good right now. Let me push this broom. It shows respect. But leadership is what you've seen before in the past. You've you've dealt with superintendents on job sites. You're like, I don't want to be anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

So, whatever that guy doing right there, I want nothing to do with him. I'll never follow that man into battle. Never. Because he just sits on top of the hill and he just starts, gets on his phone, starts barking orders. People that just manage, they just go through their day-to-day operations. They don't care about what else is going on. There's a difference, there's a huge difference between managing and leading people. You have to lead by example.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Yeah, it's easy to manage to a schedule, it's easy to manage to an outcome, point the finger and and say, ah, you're not making it. But showing them how and supporting them to get there is leading.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Right? Like you just you just said it. Well, hey, you guys aren't making schedule. You're supposed to be done with this activity today by noon. Why aren't you done? You're not going down to the root cause of what's really happening. Ah, I love it. I love root cause analysis. I love the military AARs. So, Renee, after action reviews. Every time that you complete a task, immediately after that task is complete, sit down with your group, do an AAR. What was good about this mission? What was bad about this mission? What happened with the concrete? Why was the concrete delayed? Did the batch plant come down? Did they not have enough trucks? Did you not ask the question? What else are you pouring today? You have to ask these questions, but that comes with the experience. But if somebody's not leading you and teaching you those questions to ask, you are failing that person that's next in line for you. Your replacement that you're supposed to be training.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Referring to a conversation that we were having, he's trying to connect with somebody, and it's been difficult, right? Because the person travels in and travels out and travels in, and you know, they've got a bunch of meetings and they're busy, right? Everybody's busy. And it my thought, like I get that, right? And so I shared an example of a situation that I was in. I was trying to get some specific information from an individual. And man, we kept emailing back and forth. It was a large file, it was just like I wasn't getting what I wanted. And weeks went by. Like, dude, I need that information. We're gonna be we were gonna be in Omaha. Actually, we were in Omaha together for a couple days. And like, okay, number one thing before you leave is I need that information from you, right? I'll take my jump drive and just download it on mine and we'll go from there. And then it's time to leave, right? He's got, I gotta go, I gotta catch a plane. And I said, Okay, but I still need that information from you. Okay, well, next time I said, nope, I'm going with you to the airport, and on our way to the airport, I'm getting that information from you. He's like, Man, you're serious. I was like, You're damn right I'm serious. I need it. So as he drove, I borrowed, he had uh I gave me his laptop, I slid that file over, put it on my jump drive, I got the information I needed, but I was at a block, right? Like I tried being polite, like a text and a reminder email and a calendar invite, and like all of these things, and they weren't working. Ideally, it would work on the first request, but how important was the information? It was critical. So if it's critical, I need to do whatever it takes to get it, right? And and so what Jim's talking about is you want to grow in your career, you want to become a better performer, man. You gotta ask the damn question, right? The the last episode we got to speak with Darcy Spateri. She's a first year apprentice in the electrical trade up in Ontario, Canada. And she has is it was amazing, right? And maybe this is the secret, but she has no problem asking questions. Like that's that's her rate. She she she described, like, yeah, they'll give me an assignment and I'll ask more questions. Like, what do you what do you mean by that? And what do you want it to look like? Like she'll get very clear on what the expectation is to the point that sometimes people get frustrated with her. I think that that that's a natural maybe there's there's this thinking as a man, right? As a male, we're supposed to know and we can't ask questions. Yeah, for right, like we have this macho mentality that just figure it out. Yep. Well, she's a lovely lady, she doesn't have that damn ignorance, she can't ask the damn question, right? Like we could benefit from that, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Yeah, and that's the it's a it's a mindset change. We got to change a mindset. Construction in its whole has changed, it's changing every single day. Ask the questions. Some people don't want to answer those questions, and that's okay. Some people don't want to follow in your footsteps or your guidance, that's okay. If you're talking to 15 people and two people really catch on and grasp onto what you're talking about, you're making a difference in people. Who cares about the other 13? Yes, you're going to get a couple people on your train, and those are the people that are going to replace you in the future. Beautifully said, Jen. So focus your energy on those people. So, Renee, if you're you've got this mindset that I want to do better, I want to do more. If you're not getting it from your direct supervisor, find another supervisor. Ooh.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

You get to pick them, right? Find them. So, Jim, what are what are some of the things that that that really make your job hard that make your responsibility difficult?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Confrontation, believe it or not. I don't like going into a meeting and you you're dreading going in that meeting because you know what you're going to hear. Why aren't you doing this? Here's a list of 15 things that you haven't done yet. I asked you for this information, you haven't provided to me yet. Why? You're not coaching your team right. You're not, you don't have control of your subcontractors correctly. So, what do we have to do? We have to call your boss. Man, I'm at that point. I'll dial for you.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Yeah, here, call him.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Here it is. Down my phone. Here, I'm pressing send right now. You talk to him. You know, that's a part of it. That it we don't need to go down that route. But I don't like confrontation. I'm not a confrontational person. If you know that you're going into a meeting, you're gonna get your ass rimmed out, you better have notes. You better have answers to their questions. But if you come in there without being prepared for a meeting, uh uh is all you're gonna get.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

How do you feel about surfacing problems early? Like the minute you find out there's a problem, how do you feel about taking that up the chain?

SPEAKER_01 36:08

I love it because it problems are good things. The only one gets you a chance to get better at something, right? Now you're looking for that problem because you discovered it.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Yes, it's not kicking you in the face anymore. You can do something about it, right? Correct, correct. Yeah, problems don't get better with age. No, right? No, they don't. Like wine does, but not problems. As soon as you get a find out, I mean, it's another practice, Renee. Put that in your back pocket. I'll charge you later. Um, is when you find the problem, tell somebody, don't hide it. Don't wish that it's gonna get better. Hey, there's this thing that just happened. There's this issue, there's been a change, whatever it is, I want to let you know it's gonna impact our plan. And when you do that, you give the other, you the well, think of them as resources, right? All the other team members, you give them the opportunity to adjust and even contribute to solving that problem. But if you hide it, brother, that's when you sit in that meeting and man, they're kicking you in the face. Like, hey, you were supposed to pour Tuesday, it's Thursday, why haven't you poured? But if you knew you had an issue on Monday and say, hey man, I got I got an issue, right? So and so now with COVID, they COVID positive, so I got three guys down. Like, I don't have the manpower. I'm gonna get some new people in, but we're still not gonna make Tuesday morning pour. Everybody knows, and it's a it's it's that happens. Are they happy about it?

SPEAKER_01 37:51

No, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. Oh, yeah. Discovering the problem is great. How do you plan on fixing that problem? Yes, provide a solution to the problem. Don't just say, hey, we got a problem, throw your hands up and say, All right, figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Yeah, negative on that, but you got to do that early, right? The minute you find out, you you can't wait on it. Don't yes, it's uncomfortable, but you got to get out there and put that.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

It will come to light. You cannot type anything in construction, it will come up, it's gonna come up for sure. You told that story on your last podcast, Jesse, about your sink drain, your sink that you put in. I listened to it, and I'm thinking, okay, if he didn't say nothing and he were to put that sink in and it would have collapsed.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

I would have been up. Oh, dude.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

It's a whole different ballgame. Totally different. If you would have put that thing in, if you would have installed that, thinking that you were okay. I chipped all the concrete out, I'm good, right? You got no base for that to sit on when earth settles and everything else, and it sinks. Well, who did that? I don't know who did it. Jesse did it. Jesse did that.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

Brought it up to light, you know. This has been good conversation, Jim. Um, I mean, we've talked about you know, your career, you kind of go with the flow guy, you have an intensity about you. And and I've had the privilege of you and I having some real deep conversations, like real hard conversations. I say hard because again, in the industry, right, a lot of people are are macho and protected and and don't share their fears and concerns. And and I feel like Jim and I have been able to have those can those conversations, right, about our fears and concerns. Um, you shared with us uh how you really don't want to disappoint people, no, right? You want to deliver on on people's expectations and that you're your own worst critic. And sometimes that can be a nightmare, right? Like your internal voice it never really gives you a compliment, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Always fear of failure. Yes, yes to change, you know what was really weird is um I've never won an award before in my life, besides my military decorations that I've gotten. But when I worked with Turner, my something to admit to show that I'm vulnerable. I was proud as hell that I won that Superintendent of the Year award. Never done, I've never had an award before in my life. I've never gotten a plaque for anything. That was my very first one I've ever gotten. Honestly.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Well, and it was hard-earned. I mean, you you you did earn that. So, how like you know how rewarding and meaningful that recognition was. You know how that felt.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yep. But I changed my mindset. That's the difference, is that honor about that, and when I'm looking back at that, that's when I read that book, Extreme Ownership. I changed my mindset in the way I wanted to approach my life. I had a I have a very supporting wife and a very supporting daughter that believe in me. You need to have a baseline, you have to have a foundation in order for you to succeed.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

And of course, the concrete guy is telling you you need a foundation, right? Of course. Eight tears, I need to drill that in, I gotta put my foot in the sand. You need a foundation. That's all, but I I I think you so many people, and Renee, maybe I don't know where you're thinking is I I get a sense of where you are at, you know, in your understanding. But a lot of people, young folks out there, are focused on on the plaque, right? I want the plaque, I want the promotion, I want the recognition. But what I heard you say, Jim, was that the plaque was a a result or a byproduct of your mindset.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

How how many people you think out there actually understand and practice that?

SPEAKER_01 41:55

There's not that many that I can think of that if I gave you a word of advice real quick. Oh, go for a talking about your your extreme ownership, be cautious on your extreme ownership around your wife. Yeah, just be cautious. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

And for other for our our audience, right? Extreme ownership is an amazing book, right? It's um it's a rather the philosophy is powerful, and it's very easy, because I know a bunch of people that have done this to read that book, and their first thought is man, this would be great for my son or my daughter or my boss or my coworker. Right? If that's what you think, stop time out, no problem. Yes, it is for you, yes, it is for you. You cannot extreme ownership somebody else. You have to take extreme ownership and leave the rest of it to them. It there's there's an interesting thing I've seen over and over, like, man, that book's great. I wish so and so would read it. Like, okay, that's a clear indicator to me. You did not understand what the book was intended to communicate.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

Yes, a big part of that book. My takeaway from it was to quit assigning blame and take orders. And by reading it and telling people, like, yeah, you need to read this, you need to read that, you're automatically, by definition, assigning blame.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

You are. Here's a dilemma that I see. And this is my hardest thing that I have. What Jocko's talking about in my in my mind, have your respect for your people, train your people, teach your people. Agreed 100%.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

So, Jim, time for the finale, the hard question. What's your plan for for changing the world going forward?

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Well, I can't use it. I wasn't gonna use the toilet one, but Jason used that one.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

So the port of clean port of He's on every job site. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

That was awesome. That was awesome. I'm like, man, that was a good one there. I just want people to respect each other. Get off of social media. Start living your life. This is the best country in the world. And it's going to shit real quick. Rome wasn't built in a day, but it also wasn't destroyed in a day, neither. Yes. So something's going on in this country. I just want the stuff to stop, man. You just shake your head every day. You hear the news, you read this, you just what's next? God, I don't want to go into a civil war. You know? Yeah. We just gotta start being nice to each other.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

That's another one of those deceivingly simple ideas.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Why can't we have some more respect for people? Is life that big of a deal that you gotta hate each other? It's in my head from Joel Sargons. We are all green. It don't matter the color of your skin, what race you are, what ethnicity, what gender. If you don't want to deal with that person, don't deal with them. You may have to professionally. Does anybody really have the answer or what they want to do to change the world? You gotta change yourself before you change the world.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

That's probably the hardest mission out there. Be nice to each other, change yourself, stop hating. I mean, you're right, we're in a time right now with social media. I don't know, I'm not an expert in this field, but you know, the interesting thing about social media is that it provides a platform for people for one-way communication. Like I and and you know, don't listen to social media unless you're listening to my posts, right? To the learn-ins and missteps posts. You get permission to listen to those. But um it's people putting their ideas and their thoughts out, right? Like, and this becomes a regular thing. I get kind of recondition or reformat my my brain in such a way that all I really do is is put information out or put my message out. But what I'm not doing is taking information in. So now we have this multitude of people, even in an uncharged scenario, right? Like right now, I agree with you, Jim. Like our environment out there is heavily charged. And it's it's um my concern, I'm concerned too that there's a problem coming, there's a train wreck ahead of us. And because everybody is is talking, and everybody wants to be heard, so they talk louder and talk louder, and talk louder, and scream, and so everybody's screaming right now, but nobody's listening. Correct. And we could just be nice and listen to somebody else's perspective. You don't have to adopt it, I don't have to adopt your thinking, no, and I don't have to like your ass either, because I can go home after we have this exchange and just leave it at that. I understand where you're coming from, I don't agree where you're coming from, but hey man, cool. Let's just agree to disagree, it's it, and we can do that all day, every day.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

But but well, no, we're not leaving this room until you agree with this. No, I'm just gonna agree to disagree. That's all. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 47:33

I think it's spot on. I think if we can start thinking about how we're all the same, or how how and start thinking about ways we're similar, then ways we're different. I think we can because like all of our shit stinks. We all put our pants on this one leg at a time, and if we can focus on that instead of what how we're different, I think we can we can move mountains, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Oh yeah, Billy Badass is behind computers all day long, right? Oh yeah, you send a text message, and you get mad because of he capitalized a word. And he could have accidentally done it. I sent an email out, and as I read it back after I sent it, I'm like, I gotta call her. And I apologize to her. I said, look, uh, if that email came across this way, it wasn't driven that way. I just need this information. If you're behind on a text message or something like that, pick up the phone and call somebody. Call them. Because people read things. Why are you yelling at me? You text me all in capital.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Yes. You know, email and text, it's funny because the words, because I have the same issue, right? Um when I'm texting or emailing, the tone and the and the language that I choose to put in that email or the text can be interpreted many different ways. And I'm rare, like, you know, I get to choose my attitude every day, and I choose to smile and be happy. So when I'm typing an email or a text message, just know that I'm happy. But not everybody understands that because this is what we do. And I do it too when I get, you know, those text and email messages. There's a lot of, you know, you look at an email, and there's a lot of text, right? And it's in a color black or blue or whatever. And then what I do is I fill up all the white space with my insecurities and my assumptions that transform those words into an offensive message. And so if we just don't fill the white space, read the words and make a damn phone call if it makes you feel some kind of way.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

I did it, I did it a couple days ago. That's pardon me, guys. That motherfucker. I got back in and I started flying. You know, I replied. I had this big long email, but guess what? I stopped. Jesse, that those reflection emails that I sent you. Yep. You know, that's showing vulnerability.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Yes. So let me give the the our audience some context. So uh Jim's just recently started a practice of sending a reflection email, right? And and so what it is is what he does is reflect on the day before in the evening, right? He reflects on his day, and wherever he made a misstep, a bad decision, or came across a problem, the next morning he sends an email to his entire team of what happened, right? Like, this is what I did, this is what where I was wrong or inappropriate, this is what we did, this is where we can improve, and this is our thoughts of adjustments going forward. Does that explain it, Jim?

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Yeah, that was that's pretty much right on. And if you're sending it to 12 people, 10 of those guys could give a rat's ass what you're sending. Yep. There's two people paying attention to that and wanting to change with you. I I did it for multiple reasons. One is to see what type of reaction I was gonna get. Two was I'm airing out my dirty laundry.

SPEAKER_04 51:11

I'm gonna steal that reflection email for our team. I think that will cause one that would do wonders for our team. Because like in our team, we have a lot of I guess cheese meet and like like well, he did that, so why is he judging me for doing this? You know, and he did that, and that, and then like we we get defensive, like, well, how are you telling me about that when you do this? You know, you know, we have all that, but if we just were vulnerable and just put drop the walls, we're not perfect. Yes, here's what I did, here's the here's what I ran into, and here's here's my plan moving forward, and just be humble about it and share it with the team, and and to share that it's okay to be humble, and it's okay to put your pants on one leg at a time. I think that would cause wonders for our team.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Yeah, write it down. Where's your pen and paper?

SPEAKER_04 52:05

Oh, busted. Oh, you busted me. You busted me again.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

You know, I I was writing down stuff, so I've got here while we were talking, so I've got down, just reiterate some things here. We worked about loyalty, we talked about loyalty. That was a that's a good one there. The dual lingo app, I never knew about that one. So as we're talking, I'm just writing down notes. I came back to so on Tuesday, January 19th. Am I not leading correctly? I'm reading it, I'm reading it almost verbatim here. What am I doing wrong? What if I wasn't here? You're not doing the right thing. It's a result of what I'm doing because I'm not giving you the information that you need. And that's when you came back in, Justin, you came out with it and you said right here, assign the task and give it a time frame to achieve it.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

Yeah, we were talking about um actually, thank you, Jim. That that's uh I'll take that as a compliment that you even took notes about the garbage that comes out of my mouth. He was asking, like, you know, I'm given instruction, and the outcome that I was seeking is not what I'm getting. Like, what the hell's you know, those that those those two questions? What am I doing wrong? Is it the way I'm leading? Man, if you ask yourself those questions every day, I'm telling you, you're gonna pass people up. And I'm saying that to all our listeners out there, right? Like, what am I doing wrong? What can I improve? And is it because of the way I'm leading? Now we're talking about ownership, right? What am what can I change? So my response to him was you know, we're pretty good at giving direction, right? Do this. What we're what we need to get better at is confirming that the individual has worked through how they're going to execute that and that they understand the time frame, right? So the first, well, I'll start with the time frame. It's so easy to say, hey man, I need you to do this. And and the person will usually say, Yeah, okay, I'll I'll get it, got it. Uh understood, I'll make it happen. And then I come back after lunch and say, hey man, what's up? Like you, I I told you I needed to get it done. But there was never a conversation about when it needed to be done. And so now we have a commitment about when that's important. The other part is I still need to figure out if they understand how they're going to make it happen. So it is right now the formula is issue the assignment, issue the task, and ask them how are you gonna go about executing that task? Because now the individual has to pause and think like, ooh, well, I have all these other things I need to do. And that gives them the space to say, Jim, man, I gotta do this, this, and this. So I can do it afterwards. And Jim, that gives Jim the opportunity to say, you know what, that second thing on your list, go ahead and bump that to the bottom and put this one on top. So now there's a path, right? The person has thought through how they're going to deliver and fulfill the request, and there is a an agreed upon commitment as to when that will be done. That'll save us so many headaches and screaming matches. What do you think, Jim?

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Yes, but there's one thing that you're missing. Okay. Is that you got to complete the circle? You have to, as a leader, you have to follow back up to make sure that's done. Yes. Close the loop. Respect. Close that loop.

SPEAKER_03 55:48

So, Renee, do you have any last thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 55:51

Yeah, I think um final comment, and it's a testimony of what you guys just talked about, about going full circle and making sure people understand the task. Uh, this literally just happened to me yesterday. It's fresh in my mind. Uh, so my boss, he was like, he's like, hey Renee, I need this email about um, I need you to compile all the resource usage you guys use while working on that project, right? And to one email. And I was like, okay, cool. And in the past, our team has had problems maybe with some time management and miscommunication, right? Like, so in the past, they would we would have taken that information like and maybe not have done it right away, or we we didn't understand what the time frame was, right? So when kind of poop when when somebody got under the hot seat, they're like, yo, yo, I need this information. We're like, Well, we hadn't worked on it yet, or like we're not done, or something. But this time, one thing I wanted to end with is like, just ask, you know. So he told me that I need this email, and I just asked, Well, when, like, you know, when when can I work on this? And it's as simple as that. And he's my boss. And that's another thing I want to piggyback on, too, is which is really cool about uh you, James. It sounds like you're willing to provide the space for your juniors to ask. Like you're you you create an environment that it's okay to ask questions and you don't need to be afraid, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:26

It's actually encouraged.

SPEAKER_04 57:28

That's great. And my boss is awesome like that too. So like I can I feel confident enough to ask my boss like when, without him being like, Are you smart more than me or whatever? Just figure it out. No, he'll he told me when. And then I told, and then just like you said, Jesse, like, well, I got this, this, and this to do too. And he was like, All right, well, knock off that thing, put this up the top. It's like exactly what happened, what you guys talked about just happened to me today, right? And I did it, and then I sent it to him, and then and then shortly after he replied to me, he's like, dude, awesome email. I really like this, this, and this about it. I was like, Well, actually, before that, he said, he said, great email, and then ask, right? I asked him, Well, what did you like about it so that I can continue to do it that way? And then he's like, Give me a second, uh, I'll read it out and we'll break it down. And he sent me another email about breaking it down. He says, I really like this and this and this. Uh, next time, um, change this, right? So now I know for the next time to do it that way. And then, and then to to bring, like you said, Jace uh James, to bring it full circle. At the end of the day, he replied to the whole team. He's like, dude, um, I really like this email from Renee. Uh, this is what I liked about it. And he sent it to the whole team. Wow. So now I feel great, and then now my everybody else and the team knows how to do it too.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 58:54

And it went full circle.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

You can't let that get to your head. You gotta be humble with it.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Right. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 59:01

So, Jim Bob the Builder Olmstead.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03 59:05

What are your what are your final thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 59:07

Man, I love podcasts. This is awesome. Yeah, yeah. Just having a conversation. That's the biggest thing. Why can't we just have conversations? Agree to disagree, enjoy each other's company. Life would be so much easier if we just had conversations. Get aligned. If we're misaligned, realign ourselves. All start rowing in the right direction. There's a few podcasts that I that really inspired me. There's um Andy Stump. It's called uh Clear It Hot. Cleared Hot. Okay. Cleared Hot is an awesome podcast. I listen to obviously Jocko's podcast. And then I'm also I'm on one from Dan Crenshaw. That's actually pretty cool. It's a political podcast. I've been promoting this podcast too because it's awesome. I love Ian. Ian's conversation was great. I wish I would have known that more about Ian. Jason's was pretty cool. The guy out of the gentleman out of California. Yeah. Yep. J Money. That was awesome, man. I enjoy it. I really did.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

No, man, we we covered a lot of good things. And I I want to repeat for the audience: be nice. Have some conversations. You're offering that for people to think about, right? Be nice. Have some conversations. Respect. Trust. I mean, all these beautiful things. It's going to take work. It's not easy. But if we did a little bit more of it, things would be better. That was a pretty cool conversation with Jim. What do you think, Renee?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

Yeah, super awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:39

Right. We zigzag back and forth, but uh, we got to touch on some real deep issues there. I don't know if I told you this, but we got a bunch of listeners in Ontario, Canada that have been dedicated in catching a lot of our episodes. So shout out to Ontario. And I imagine, Renee, you got somebody in mind that you want to recognize.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:01

Yeah, yeah. Let's give a shout out to Annalisa. She says, I hired my replacement yesterday. After that, I tuned into your podcast and thought I needed to hear some positive words and reassert myself. This is possible. Wow, Annalisa, that means a lot to us. Uh, we're we're super humbled uh to have impacted you in a positive way. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:30

Man, you are one dedicated listener, sticking with us all the way through to the very, very end. Please know that this podcast dies without you. And we invite you to share how the episode is impacting you, along with your thoughts, questions, and suggestions. You've been gracious with your time, so we added social media links in the show notes to make it super easy for you to connect with us. Be kind to yourself, stay cool, and we'll talk at you next time.