Stop Giving Feedback - Have this Conversation Instead

Fluffy Feedback Vs Real Clarity

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If you have been frustrated from giving people feedback because they do not change their behavior, they do not do the things or stop doing the things that you need them to do, it's probably because you're tiptoeing around in soft, vague, fluffy feedback, and you probably need to start suiting up and bringing the performance conversation. Hey, can I talk to you for a minute? First, I want to point out I love the energy that you bring to every interaction that we have. It lights up the room, it helps people get connected and get motivated. And there's this particular thing that you've been doing that is not helping the team. And what I really need you to do is be more assertive and be clearer about the things that you're dealing with. Again, the energy that you bring to the team is fantastic. It's not the end of the world. These are just some small things that I really need you to think about. Okay. Does that sound familiar? I call that the poo-poo sandwich. And we'll come back to that here in a second. But I'll give you a different example of performance conversation. All right, man. You've been on the team for about 90 days. You've been here for three months. You're not new. And there is a gap. There are some expectations that currently you are failing to fulfill. And I want to be super clear. I'm talking to you about this because that behavior, that performance needs to change. I'm here to figure out what resources and support you need so that you can fulfill the expectation. But if you choose not to acquire resources and support and choose not to change the outcome, change your behaviors and actions to make this thing better, we are going to have to take steps either to reassign you or to exit you from the team. Now that is an example of a performance conversation. The first one was the poo-poo sandwich, which is feedback. And today we're going to talk about the difference and why it's getting so many damn managers and leaders frustrated, irritated, and not having the outcomes that you want. I am Jesse, your selfish servant. And the reason I love having these conversations is because I want to pour into OG ballers like you so that we can collectively leave the construction industry better than we found it. Now, we're going to get super, super clear about the difference between feedback and performance conversations. And I also want to add the little asterisk caveat that this is how it works in Jesse Land. And it's pretty rigid, it's pretty clear, but it has produced phenomenal outcomes for me in terms of people being understanding like what they need to do, what they're what they got to focus on, what kind of support they're going to get from me. Um, and also not being a uh super direct jerk mean guy in all situations because it is easy to to go down that route. And you know, the feedback poo-poo sandwich approach, the nice soft, touchy-feely approach is valuable and useful in the right setting. And so is the performance management conversation in the right setting. For some reason, and I'm sure it's just because you know, managing people and leading people is complicated, it's difficult, it's uncomfortable, it makes us do things that we prefer not to do as managers. And so we've seen I've seen a lot of people out there start migrating to like the touchy feely, let's be nice, let's be gentle. And that probably works for some people, but it also sets them up for failure. Again, this is a Jesseism. It may not be true for you, and if it ain't true for you, don't sweat it, just keep on tracking. But if you have been frustrated from giving people feedback because they do not change their behavior, they do not do the things or stop doing the things that you need them to do, it's probably because you're tiptoeing around in soft, vague, fluffy feedback, and you probably need to start suiting up and bringing the performance conversation.

Why The Feedback Sandwich Backfires

SPEAKER_00 4:39

So, first, let's talk about feedback. And I'm I am the case study in this example. At the very top of this live stream, I gave the um the poo-poo sandwich example of feedback, which is a common thing, it's a tactic, you know, it doesn't work for me. And the theory is this first, you give them some positive feedback or a positive observation about their performance or give them a compliment, right? That's the bottom layer of the bread, and then you give them some critical feedback and you let them know what the problem is, what the issue is, what they need to work on, blah, blah, blah. And then on top, you put another bun on top of that bad boy, and it's a positive, nice thing. Now, I get it, right? Some people are delicate, I am delicate. Uh, but it kind of not kind of, it absolutely muddies up the message. For some people, they will only hear the critical feedback, and that was the whole point of the damn conversation. And so they feel like they were baited and switched. What is and what does that do? That cuts off trust, that cuts off connection because you're not being authentic or you're just not being transparent and saying, Hey man, we need to have a performance conversation. There's this thing you're failing to do. We need to fix it. What do you need for me? Very simple. We pat it up, right? We put start with the compliment, and then we give them the critical, and then we give them the positive, and so they they lose trust. And anytime you come talk to them, what's going to happen is they're going to say, Okay, yeah, you're starting off nice, but where's the hammer? I know you're coming with something, just hit me with it. That happens for people now. For people like me, I'm a math guy, right? And so if you give me three pieces of feedback, observations about my performance and my behavior, I'm doing math. And if two out of three are good, guess what? I'm winning. I'm batting 600 and them is half hall of fame numbers. I don't even hear the critical feedback. And I have had bosses say, Jess, we've talked about this. Like, I don't remember talking about this. Like, yeah, I told you that. I was like, I don't remember, like, I really don't remember it because it was so soft and gentle, and there was pillows all around the critical feedback that I missed it. It went entirely over my head, and so that's the point, right? Is when we come and and more specifically in the appropriate setting, I think it works fantastically. Like I've been a part of a lot of nonprofits, I've been a part of organizing a lot of volunteer uh we'll say events. And in that context, I am going to be giving feedback, it's very suggestive, it's very polite, it's very soft because they're not on the clock and they ain't getting paid, like they're there of their own free will. When I'm talking to my friends or you know, folks that there's not like a um a formal power dynamic in terms of like they report to me and I verify their uh expense reports and their timesheets and all that stuff, that's a different situation. So, in these other like very social environments, this feedback idea is is valuable. And now the way I do it, and the thing I'm recommending to you is when you're in these social environments, one-on-one, groups, volunteers, teams, etc. Basically, where people ain't getting paid to put up with you, feedback is good. The problem is we try to use this feedback nicey, softy, touchy thing in a professional context, and that's where we have problems. Now, that's not to say that it doesn't work when you're the boss and when you're in charge and when you're a manager, it can work. What I am saying though is that if you have found yourself frustrated because your team is not performing to the level and you've talked to them and they've made zero changes, it's probably because you were so damn fluffy and indirect and soft and feedback y about it that it didn't register. And another point that I really, really want to put out there for you guys to consider is the way I receive feedback. You can tell me whatever you need to tell me. And we uh the emotional budget jumpers, we do this all the time. We give each other some pretty uh radically candid feedback on people's performance of the activity, and the action is to say thank you, right? When you get feedback, you always say thank you because you want to keep the faucet open so you can keep getting feedback from that resource. What it doesn't mean is that I'm going to take and apply that feedback. Feedback in Jesse Land, and I think in a lot of people's minds is a suggestion or a recommendation. Again, if we're in a nonprofit organization or a social situation, suggestions are great, and that's probably as far as you can go. Maybe you might be able to dictate a little bit, but eventually those people will not volunteer to spend their time of their own free will with you. And so, in that context, feedback is very valuable, it's very useful. But in the professional context, in in the job setting, it can set you up for failure and it can set your team up for failure. And so, again, I want to be super, super clear. If you have a comment, if I'm if you're my boss and you come to me and tell me, hey Jess, I got some feedback for you. My brain automatically says, Ah, they're giving me suggestions and recommendations, which means I can choose to use it or choose to ignore it. And what is that gonna do? That is going to frustrate people, that is going to leave my boss irritated. And I have many, many bosses behind me that have been super irritated by me. And then, you know, the thing gets escalated, and so now they're doing a performance improvement plan or whatever, which I've been on a few, and I'm like, why are you hitting me with this now? Like, I didn't know there was a problem, and it's because all the wishy-washy feedback-y conversations

When Feedback Is Just A Suggestion

SPEAKER_00 10:40

that we had. Let's get into performance conversations because the this is where the rubber meets the rope, and it's uncomfortable, like it is not comfortable, it is not the easiest thing. It does get comfortable with practice, and I pinky, super, super pinky promise that the more practice you get, you'll see like the reps. When you get the reps in, you'll see the behavior change, and because of such a dramatic impact on the person's behavior, the outcome transforms, things are better faster. So then it's like, okay, it's gonna be uncomfortable, but we are going to achieve the intended outcome faster, so it makes it easier for me to do the thing.

The Three Parts Of A Performance Talk

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Now, there's three points in a performance conversation that I super super anchor on, and one I kind of gave it away, it's the it's anchor language, two is consequences, and three is resources and support. And when I say anchor language, I will use words like failure, problem with performance, impacting, stealing from the team, not helping us win. I am ultra ultra clear. Uh, like I use words that they are not going to forget. Hey, oh look, look, we got Miss Coach Kerry. How you doing, Miss Coach Carrie? How you doing? Um, I'm super clear, Coach Carrie. I'm gonna use you as an example. If we have a if I'm the manager, you're the on the team, and I gotta give you uh have a conversation with you around your performance. I'm not gonna say, Coach Carrie, can I give you some feedback? No, I am going to say, Coach Carrie, this thing we were supposed to do, it's supposed to be done by Friday. Based on the progress you've made, it seems like you're going to fail to meet the timeline. I know that you have been active in these other things, which are not the priority right now, and your inability to make to prioritize the damn work is going to impact your career or at least the your upcoming promotion. So, what do you need from me so that you can meet the expectation? What support, what resources do you need from me so that you can figure out how to prioritize the thing and get things done on time? Because right now you already missed the first deadline. Now I know that sounds harsh and it feels harsh me saying it, but the point is it was a performance conversation, it was not a feedback thing. I'm hoping you can pick up on the difference. I'm not making suggestions, I'm being clear. Failing to meet the objective, these are the behaviors that you're doing. What do you need from me so that we can get you back on the path? And so ultimately, if you're gonna when you're going to have a performance conversation with somebody, you can be lazy like I used to. This is how I started early. I would be super clear like, hey man, we need to talk, we need to have a performance conversation. We're going to this conversation is about your performance and how that performance is not contributing to the goal. Ultra, ultra clear. Did it feel yucky for the people? I'm sure it did because it felt yucky for me, but it was anchor point, like, oh crap, yes, we had a performance conversation. Yes, Jesse did tell me, sat me down to talk to me about me failing to meet the objective, or about some behaviors and actions that I needed to stop and some behaviors and actions that I needed to start. There's no confusion about it. So, anchor language, I super, super recommend it. You don't have to use the words I use, you can come up with your own words, but the main point is use words that they will not forget.

Consequences That Create Urgency

SPEAKER_00 14:29

The second is tying consequences into that conversation. I have done this, it's happened to me, and I've seen it happen with apprentices out in the field. It's happened this like between me and some of my direct reports and over the years that I've been out there. Um, I did not communicate the consequence. I had like I used the anchor language and said, Hey, there's this thing, you need to stop doing it, or you need to start doing this thing, or whatever it was. But I never said, if you fail to do so, X will happen. And so when I came back, I'm like, hey man, we had the damn conversation, you still haven't done anything about it. And it was like, I don't know, one guy in particular is like, Well, well, I didn't like I didn't know it was that big a deal. I'm like, Well, why the hell do you think I'd talk to you? He's like, Well, yeah, I knew you were upset, and yeah, I'm working on it. Like, ah, okay, bad on me. Uh, my coach back then, Mr. David Verbal, said, Okay, are you communicating the consequences? And of course, I'm like, Well, he knows, and he said, Okay, so what about his behavior indicates that he knows what the consequence is because the consequence was that he was gonna be terminated or moved off the team, which were like that's not a good thing, right? I didn't want that from you. He had a lot of uh value to bring to the team, and I'm like, I was like, Oh, yeah, I guess he doesn't know he didn't make all those connections. I did. So next time we sat down, I used the anchor language, like, hey man, we got to talk about this thing. This is the second time we're talking about it, and there you there is absolutely no indication indication that you are committed to changing your behavior. Failing to do so could result in you getting terminated or getting you pushed off the team into another department. When I said that, his eyes got 10 times bigger than they were, and I had his full attention. And his words to me was like, dude, I didn't like I understand now, I didn't put it together that this was really, really affecting my job. I know it needed to be worked on, but I didn't think it was that big a deal. So that's that's fair. Part of that is on me because I wasn't clear about the consequences. Did it feel good? Absolutely not. I've done, I think I could honestly say hundreds of performance conversations. None of them feel good. It's it's kind of nerve-wracking before we go and start the damn conversation. But I'm gonna tell you, out of the hundreds that I've done, I've only had two that turned into like a real negative, contentious engagement. All of the rest of them, they're like, oh crap. Okay, I here's what I'm going to do to change that. Beautiful. Or hey, man, here's what I need so that I can do that. Here's why I haven't done it. You know, we got clear about what the resources and support were. And then after that, it was awesome.

The Apprentice Story That Hit Hard

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Half of them would say thank you. They're like, Man, just thank you. One apprentice in particular who had been passed around, meaning they get him on a project and they would booger flick him. And so when the next project said, Hey man, I need a guy, I need a I got an emergency, I need a helper. He was the first one everybody would give up. Then he landed on my team. And at this point, he's a third-year apprentice, and he did not have the experience or the skill set that a third-year apprentice should have. And so I sat him down and I said, Hey man, do you understand why you're always getting passed around? He's like, Yeah, because everybody wants me on their job. And I'm like, You're kidding me. He's like, No, like, of course, like I they're always asking for me. That's okay, bro. I gotta tell you, it is not because everybody wants you on their job, it is because everyone is so eager to get you off of their project. Like, so I'm gonna give you the we're starting with the fresh slate, but I gotta let you know, man, you're a third-year apprentice. I'm looking at your bucket of tools. You ain't got nowhere near the tools that you a third-year apprentice needs to have. So here is the tool list. I need you to start buying a new tool every week until you fill this list because I'm limited on the work I can put you on. And if the pay rate that you're earning, you don't have the tools to execute that work. Guess what? The next step is termination. So I need you to get your tools and I need you to ask questions because I'm going to help you get better. But if you refuse to take on more responsibility, get tools, and take on more complex tasks, you will be terminated. I am not passing you on to another team. Of course, you know, he was a little teary-eyed. It was, it was a it was a heavy conversation. I wasn't screaming at him, I wasn't yelling at him. I just needed to be clear because for three years his managers were not clear with them, and the poor guy thought he was doing good for three years, and so main point anger language, anchor language, what are the consequences?

Resources And Support That Stick

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Secure a commitment and then resources and support, right? So, well, we're gonna use my apprentice guide as an example. I said, Look, man, I've already given you a list, that's a resource. Here's the tool list you need to get. I gave you direction, you need to buy a new tool every week. If you can't, let me know, right? Because some of the tools we needed a turbo torch was which back then was like 175 bucks. Um, like if there's a dollar issue, let me know and we will work that out. But then you have like $10 tools on there, like, come on, bro, skip, skip subway for a couple days and you'll get the tool that you need. And so I said, Okay, now what else do you need? What can I do that will help you get to where you need to be? It was awesome. He said, You know what, Jess? I don't I don't really like this conversation. He said, But can we have this type of conversation at least once a week? Like, I want to know, am I getting better on a weekly basis? And I said, Yeah, like, yeah, for real. He's like, Yeah, like I you just tell me how I performed on the task, what your expectations were, and if I met them and if I didn't, he didn't use those words, and I'm like, bro, absolutely, man, that's exactly what we're gonna do. And you know, we were working, I was a foreman, he was uh uh an apprentice, so I didn't really work side by side with him, and he already knew that the journeymen weren't giving him any feedback, right? They're just yelling at him and telling him to hurry up, and so after a few months, he's he started making progress because we had the performance conversation, and I prom I talked to all the other foremen that he had worked with before, and I'm like, bro, have you why in the hell haven't y'all told this guy that he's not performing like? Well, we did. I'm like, okay, but like, did you sit him down and talk to him? Well, I told him that he needed to get better, I told him that he needed to get faster. I like they would make passing comments most of the time when they were frustrated and irritated, but they didn't use any anchor language, they did not discuss the consequences, and they didn't offer resources and support. And so when you're gonna have these performance conversations, for me, those are the three things. I'm sure you can GPT or Google it and find a whole list of other stuff, but I like to keep it

Simple Script To Use Tomorrow

SPEAKER_00 21:43

simple. Anchor language. We are going to have a conversation about your performance because it is not contributing to the goal. And if you're not gonna contribute to the goal, we got to make a decision about whether you're right for the team. Anchor language, super clear. Why the hell we're talking about it? Consequences, and when I say maybe you're not a good fit for the team, what I mean is you're either going to be moved to another team or you're going to be exited from the company, terminated, whatever the you know, PC language is clear about the consequences. Now, here are the behaviors, here are the outcomes and the results of what you've been doing. Here's what I see that I'm recommending you change, but tell me what you need from me so that I can help you be successful. That's resources and support. Very different than saying, Hey, can I give you some feedback? You know, you don't really have the tools you need, and you really should start buying tools. I said should like two times. That is a suggestion and a recommendation. And I just want to paint the picture. I know I'm kind of beating a dead horse at this point, but I want to paint the picture of the mistakes that we make that lead to us being frustrated about our team members, and even worse, lead to us underperforming as a leader. One, because we're not helping them develop and grow, and two, because we're not meeting our objective. And it's probably because we're confusing feedback with the performance conversation. So if this sounds like familiar at all, if this resonates with you, drop a thumbs up in the thing. This way you can signal back to me that like, is it making sense or not? Um, if not, hey, if what you're doing is working and you're experiencing amazing outcomes just like you want, don't change, keep doing what the hell you're doing. Or maybe you found one nugget that you can take and use and apply in your operation, take that nugget, apply it, go make yourself better. Ultimately, the purpose of these ideas and me sharing some of the twisted ways I think about things is to help you share your gifts and talents so we can leave the construction industry better

Construction Leadership Lab Invite

SPEAKER_00 24:00

than we found it. Now, if you're interested in having more conversations like this with other OG baller leaders in the industry, I'm tinkering around on this experiment known as the construction leadership lab. Right now, I'm getting feedback and building all the back end stuff with my partner in crime, Miss Erin. She's really the brains behind everything. I'm just the pretty face. And so if you're interested in that, if you want to get on like the first to knower list of what to expect from that little community and be the first to know that, hey, it's open, come sign up. Uh, drop the lab in the comments. If you drop the lab in the comments, I will get a link to you so you can give us your input and so you can get on that list. And if not, it's okay. I still love you. Be cool, be kind to yourself, and we'll talk at you next time.

unknown 24:55

Peace.