Why Most Leaders Avoid the Conversations That Actually Build Culture (With Lisa Corrales)

Conflict Is Not The Point

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And if you're thinking it's conflict, it's not conflict. You're in a leadership position. This is a conversation. This is not an argument. This doesn't have to be tense. It doesn't have to be awkward, but it is necessary.

Meet Lisa Corales

SPEAKER_00 0:12

What's going on, LM family? Back at it. And this time I got a super awesome special person who, if y'all haven't figured it out already, I really use this podcast as an excuse to have a long conversation with very talented people that are making big impact in the industry. She is a champion of people, she's an advocate of the power of a positive workplace culture. So you know, I got we got some affinity here. And here's her mission: her mission is to create inclusive, thriving environments where people feel supported, valued, and inspired to reach their full potential. So if she's not speaking my love language already, like, come on, y'all. We're gonna have a great conversation. Her name is Miss Lisa Corales, who I got to meet up in Phoenix. And we're gonna get to know Ms. Lisa here in a minute. And if this is your first time here, this is the Learnins and Miss Steps podcast, where you get to see how amazing human beings just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I am Jesse, your selfish servant, and we are about to get to know Miss Lisa. Miss Lisa, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:32

I'm doing good, Jesse. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Oh, you know, if you can't tell, my energy is a little elevated. Excited to talk to you, particularly because of the mix. I was doing a little bit of LinkedIn stalking, but there's this mix of interest that you have around leadership and BD and organizational psychology, which is really fancy. And I know that your path has been pretty, it's a well-traveled path. And so super, super stoked. And just so we can like ease into the conversation. I have a first question. May I ask it?

SPEAKER_02 2:11

You may.

Leadership That Protects People

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Okay. What is it that you love about the intersection between leadership, business development, and organizational psychology?

SPEAKER_02 2:23

That's a really good question. First, I just want to say I do agree with Andy. I have been in a presentation of yours, and it was fantastic. I actually have taken some of those things. They happen, I think you were out here a little over a month ago, and I started a goal. I wrote a goal down during your presentation, and I have actually literally stuck with it. I think it's like I'm on like week six, maybe. And yeah, so it's been amazing. And it really stemmed from you and your presentation and your high energy and everything you brought to that. So I appreciate you and I thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Oh my goodness, thank you, one, for saying it, and two for doing the thing. Like for me, that's the ultimate. Like, I do a lot of presentations, and there was a time in my life, Lisa, believe it or not, that just being in the front of the room, getting attention was all I cared about. Now I really care about helping people. And so knowing you telling me directly that whatever we covered in that session had that kind of an impact is meaningful to me because now I'm not just sucking up attention, I'm actually helping it.

unknown 3:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

So thank you. It's a true story. It totally, totally helped me. So, yeah, so thank you. So, back to your question, the intersection that I love the most about organizational development and leadership and business development is just all of those things come together in a way where I think that there's there's different paths, right? Some people are kind of natural born leaders, some people are not, but they're okay with that. Not everybody wants to be a leader and not everybody should be a leader. We we need the kind of the differences in people who can be led and people who want to be led, and then those people who do. When I was younger, I used to be called bossy in the playground and industry school. I was always told I was bossy, and uh, it never really like offended me, but I was just like, okay. But now as I've grown older, I realize I wasn't bossy. I was just I was in a leadership role always. I've always been like that. I I was born that way. I'm the oldest of five. I'm the only girl, I'm the oldest grandchild, I'm the oldest everything. And I have just always naturally felt like a natural-born leader. And I love it. I love leadership because I think it's so important to have good leadership and to be good leaders. I've had very bad leaders and I've had very good leaders. And I love to take a little bit of both of what I've learned from all of them and apply that in a way that helps others. And so when you take that and you combine it with like organizational development, which is what I went to school for, uh because and I love it. It's so funny. It's like, who's passionate about you know, workplace behaviors and dynamics and people and but I am like it's just a funny thing. It took me a really long time to figure it out. And I was like, is this a thing to be passionate about? But it is for me because I've been in a lot of work environments that were not good. And I just, I don't think it's that hard to make a good work environment. And so being organized in the development of the workplace and just having intentions to make it a good place to be, and combining that with leadership and then business development comes in that because you can't grow your business if you don't have good leadership and organizational development mixed in. So you can have all the money to, you know, build your business and to get clients and um, but if you don't have the things in place for a good people structure, that's where you're likely going to not necessarily fail, but you might not grow like you want to. So I've always said like, I think a lot of businesses focus on their clients or their patients or their customers, whoever they're serving, but they forget the people that serve them, right? Which is your people. Your people are the front line, they're the faces of the people that they're interacting with. And so I feel like oftentimes businesses, organizations, and leaders they skip that step and they just focus on that or their bottom line, which we absolutely as a business need to focus on our bottom line. But how you get there is by focusing on your people first. And so if you can do that and you do it well, you will have a great organization. So and some people want to work and they're happy and they're happy to do the work and to do good for you. And if they are doing that, not only do you have a good workplace environment, but you don't have a retention problem and you don't have a recruiting problem. Because if those people are happy, they are naturally gonna bring in more people just like them to work for you. And before you know it, you have a thriving workplace and a recruiting machine where you're you're always gaining good people.

Can Leadership Be Taught

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Oh my goodness. There's there's a big, I love it, like a big old 50-gallon barrel of worms that we're gonna dive into. You just opened it up, Miss Lisa. So one thing I I have to just say I concur with you 100%, and it's part of the reason, a large part of the reason why I decided to start my own business. But the observation I had when I had like real jobs, right, was there was so much, and this was a limiting factor to my career growth. And I knew it, and I just thought I'm like, fine, it's what it is. The overwhelming amount of or the majority of resources that business owners and decision makers within the business committed to the external customer irritated me. Because I'm like, what about the internal customer? What about my coworkers, my colleagues, like internally? Now, don't get me wrong, I've worked with some amazing organizations that really did have structure to help develop talent and expand career growth and that's like like for real, like top of the line, really sophisticated ways to make that happen. But the system doesn't work without the people. And so we had decision makers that said, okay, you know, there's a system, do the thing, but their individual primary heart and focus was on the external customer. And they were always kind of like, Jess, you know, we can you can advance and run your own business unit, but you need to go to project manager and then da da da da da. I'm like, I don't want to do that. And they said, why not? It's like because I don't care about their problems, like our customers' problems, I don't care about them. I care about my friends, like my colleagues and co-workers' problems. I want to help them, and there ain't enough people focused on helping them. Like, yes, we have the systems, but we don't have people that are guiding and navigating them through the system so that they can accelerate quickly. And that's what I want to do. And like straight up, one of my blinds was great. He's like, All right, Jess, like, we'll support you because we meet, like, nobody ever wants to do that. It's like, well, I love it. Yeah, he's like, but you recognize there's a limit to how much you can earn, and I was like, Yeah, I'm I'm fine with it, like, whatever. It's not about money at some point that for a long time it was, but not anymore. So I applaud you for recognizing and the crossroads of all of those things, right? Because if one thing's out of alignment, you're gonna feel the pain. And what pain do you feel? It is turnover, yeah, for sure. If you if you have high turnover, guess what? Retention is a problem, which what guess what that makes hard? It makes recruitment like it has real business impact. Um, all right, so that's my little pulpit moment about internal and external customers. Now you mentioned born leaders, and then and I hear like you said you always you're miss bossy. I love that. And I applaud you for like not having a uh sour attitude about it because it can be offensive, right? It couldn't be demeaning, but you're like, Yeah, I'm a boss. What else? What you want from me, fool? But do you think like what are your thoughts on the idea that you can't teach leadership? They're either you're either born with it or you don't have it.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

That's a really good question. I actually think you can teach it. I I I think that there is, I think you are born with elements of it, just like I feel like if you look at an athlete, if you look at Kobe Bryant or LeBon James, Steph Curry, like Tom Brady, they they were all born with some element of talent, but they still have to work really, really hard to get to the level that they became. And so I feel like it's the same thing with leadership. I feel like there's probably elements that you're born with, but for sure, and you, you know, people can be taught to be good leaders. I think that there's people that are in positions of leadership that shouldn't be, you know, and I I think a lot of times it's just organizations see, maybe it's seniority or it's just the next step. Like you're here, you've been here for this long, this person's leaving, so you're just the next person to move up, which is not the way it should be. You really need to assess and make sure that person is the right for the leadership role. Now, I do think that they can work on it. I think that they can be taught. A lot of it comes down to self-awareness. My thing is if if people have self-awareness, you can learn to change anything. But if you don't recognize that you have an something that you could solve, like if you don't recognize there's an issue there that can be solved or changed, and you're just on the defense and you're like, nope, it's not me, it's them. There's not a lot of hope there. But if you can come with some self-awareness and go, you know what? Yeah, sometimes I react impulsively, or sometimes I'm short with people. I need to work on that. I need to be better, I'll pay more attention. The self-awareness to know and then to want to grow is where it all starts. I think if you have that, you can become either a leader or a better leader. If that's what your your goals are. You gotta want it and you gotta recognize your faults. And we all have them. Even the best leaders still have room for progress, room to grow, and ways to be better.

Why Leadership Programs Go Missing

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Oh my God. Yeah. One key thing you said was you gotta want it. Because I know a guy, Lisa, I'm not gonna say his name, but I know a guy that was always exposed or will say recruited towards volunteer leadership responsibilities, and he rejected it and fought it and fought it and fought it. And then finally, he was faced with the decision like, okay, you don't want to move up anymore. These are the people that are on the list to get promoted. And then I said, I ain't working for those dumbasses. And then they said, Okay, well, if you don't want to work for them, you either step up or you're gonna have to work for them. But here was the caveat: they said, Jesse, here's the problem. Similar to what you pointed out, I got promoted from an installer to a foreman because I was good, like I could install work, and you know, whatever, but I didn't care about people, I didn't care about my like everybody was my competition back in my head. Everybody was my enemy. I'm just trying to beat everybody, and so I was good at making money and making schedule, but people quit on me and our customers hated me. And I thought I was like, Well, you just need to hire better people and find better clients. Like, come on, man, it's not like what's the problem here? And so he said, No, no, you need to build these skills of like leading and communicating and connecting with people. Are you committed? And like I said, the company I was working for, they had a program, like they had leadership development, and it I said, fine, just not because I wanted to be a leader, but because I didn't want to work for those dumb ding dongs that were the little colleagues, and man, it does you pointed out self-awareness, like it was dramatic. I'm like, oh my god, it doesn't have to be this hard. Like, what why did I do it that way? But I was just doing what I picked up from the leaders that I had that I thought was the way, and then I was equipped with these skills that was like, oh man, it doesn't have to be that difficult. And so I know that you recently I did from my lens, you you've come to feel verified. And there is, I know there's like a developmental program that y'all are pretty like strict to and pushing and making sure people elevate through that, which to me is phenomenal. Again, applause to you guys, and that's why I love working with y'all because y'all really invest in your people. We're gonna do the LM family member shout-out, and this one goes to Mr. Andy Middleton. Mr. Andy was so gracious and generous, he went to the Google and left me a review, five stars, even. He says, Jesse is an excellent presenter, and his experience in the industry allows his to relate to the people he's presenting to. I love his mindset and the culture he is bringing into the industry. So there, I didn't say it. Andy said it, I'm just reading it. So, folks, y'all already know. Andy, first, thank you, bro. Thanks for leaving that review. It's meaningful to me in the rest of LM family. You already know I love attention and all the comments, all the reviews, all the support, the shares, the posts, the likes, all of those things. I super, super appreciate it. It helps the show, it helps feed my ego and keeps me from going into the darkness. And it also gives me an excuse to celebrate you in the future. So keep them coming, folks. Many organizations don't have a leadership development program. Have you been exposed to any organizations that like it's not even something on their mind?

Culture By Design At Field Verified

SPEAKER_02 16:02

I like you said, I've I have a well-traveled path to get where I am now. I've worked at quite a few different places, and none of the ones I've worked at have had any kind of structure to not only to become in a leadership role, but nor were they even like concerned about that. I feel like if they were, they didn't let us know as employees. If it was something that they wanted to do or thought of, they didn't do it in a way where we as the everyday you know worker knew about it, which is unfortunate. So, yes, at Field Verified here, we definitely do that. It's one of the reasons I came here because you know how passionate I am about work culture. Brian Melcher, the owner and CEO of Field Verified, has a great work culture and created a lot of different things within Field Verified to make sure that that happens. And you know, we're we're still small and we we take a lot of pride into making sure that the people that do work here are getting everything that they need. And if they don't, we make so many different routes for them to get that if they need it. And so we check in with them monthly, we check in with them weekly. We have special meetings where everybody has a voice. That's actually my favorite one. Everybody gets to come to the table. And I mean, I'm being literal. There's a table in the conference room every other week where people, everyone in the company gets to come and we ask certain questions about, you know, our equipment. Is it good? Is it broken? Do we need new equipment? What could be better? What do we need to do? And then everybody gets a turn to say anything about what they feel like could make it better or what we could need. As far as you could say, I wish we had an air fryer in the kitchen. And by the next day, an air fryer will be, you know, ordered. We have an air fryer in the kitchen now. And so it could be that, it could be, you know, just the process in which we do things. Brian has always been very methodical about how things are done here. He puts so much thought into literally everything. You would like you come in and you see these things and you see our our even our hats, you know, but you don't realize how much time and energy and effort he's put into the process of those things. So it's something from the hats that we make all the way down to the people that we employ here and making sure that we have so many tools and resources for them to be the best at their job. And we have an amazing team here. It's probably the first place I've ever worked where everyone here is so great and everybody is so willing to pitch in and help and do things. And it's not even that, like the way that it's designed is that everybody can can do everything here. And so whatever needs to be done, there's always someone here to do it. But everybody's so willing to pitch in and help out as well. And it's just a great environment. I give a lot of credit to Brian for creating an environment like that. And then I give a lot of credit to everyone that works here to buy into that and to be a part of it. And everybody has a role in that. And I just love so much that I get to be a part of not only a part of it, but also a part in helping it continue to grow and be as great as it can be.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Oh my goodness. And folks, Ellen family out there, I'm here to attest. I've seen it firsthand. Every like the the meeting, it was a Friday meeting, and that it was a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Oh, that was our scrum meeting. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yep, and went through the everybody at the table was able to say, Hey man, here's what I'm thinking, here's what I'm feeling. I've been able to do a bunch of stuff with y'all. And I've the thing that blows me away is just the not just the caliber of people that you have there, like young, young dudes and like experienced people, like all the way through, but it's like the positive energy, like excitement about what y'all are doing. Like, man, this is amazing. So, folks, if you're in like the Phoenix area or the DFW area and you're looking for a challenge to work with some amazing people, consider field verified. And if if it turns out you don't like it, you can blame it on me. Because I'm telling you, they got it going on. They got they are the type of leaders and decision makers that I like to surround myself with because they invest in who they got. Hopefully, that'll give me another hat. What do you say, Lisa?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah, for sure.

Feedback, Trust, And Better Onboarding

SPEAKER_00 20:32

But no, I actually had a conversation with with Brian, and that's the beautiful thing about working with you guys. He and I always talk, and he's always kind of give. I don't know if he's like coaching me on purpose, but I'm like taking mental notes because the he walked me through how he's thinking about his hats and the labeling and the logo, like all the branding that in a freaking hat. Yeah, and I'm like, oh man, this dude and he's like that about everything. So he pours back into me, which is which is amazing. Now, you said a word that means a lot to me, and it baffles me why the rest of our construction industry hasn't latched on to this idea yet. But you said designed. Brian designed the culture, designed the environment, designed the systems to support and reinforce this thing. And I know you have some background in organizational psychology and development. Like what's the what's the challenge? What is it that people are decision makers are missing? What do they need so that they can actually design a system where people can thrive and grow?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

That's such a great question. I don't anybody can do it. I think they just I I feel like what they're missing is the understanding that it's even a need in the first place. So knowing that you have to create that you have to put work in to create an environment that people feel like they can be. That they can thrive in, that they can be happy in, that they can come do their best work in. I think that a lot of it is an old way of thinking. And this is completely just my opinion. I I just feel like a lot of it is the old time thinking of I give them a paycheck. I already like I pay them to come here, which is great. Of course, we all want paychecks, but it's not enough anymore to just be like, here's your paycheck. Because the way that it is now, it used to be someone would come to work, they'd work for a company for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years, get a pension and retire. They'd stay at one company. That is not the case anymore. People are moving around and they and they flipped it around. And the reason they move around is because they can. And they're always looking for a better option. They're looking for better pay. They're looking for better PTO. They're looking for better leadership. And now it's the norm to move around. The average person, like when you move from job to job, you are almost always increasing your salary. So you do it in order to get a bump, right? You're not, you're not going down. And the fact is, most of us out here need to work. And so we can just go get a job somewhere else if the current place that we're working at is not giving us what we need. And what I really wish that a lot of organizations understood is it doesn't have to cost you any money to show someone that you appreciate them and that you value them. I'm not asking you to like, you know, throw pizza parties and take them out on trips or buy them things. It is as easy as showing someone that you value them by telling them, giving them good feedback. When they do a good job, tell them they did a good job, you know, give them a shout-out. Like, do there's so many things that can be done that don't cost you a dime, but make someone feel good because the fact is we spend more than eight hours a day at work. We spend more time at work than we do at home and with our families. And so we want to find somewhere to do that where we feel like, you know, we're in a good place. And if we can work somewhere where it's a good work environment, we're gonna stay there. If it's not, we're gonna leave. And it's because there are a lot of companies and organizations that have figured that out. And there's a lot that have put in place really good work environments. So if you're at a place that doesn't have one, you are able to go on LinkedIn now and find out that there's other places that do, and you can just you can go there. Now, the job market is rough. It it's rough out there right now, and it is hard. But at the end of the day, there are jobs out there, and you know, what people are doing is they're staying at their current job and they're applying until they find something better, and then they're leaving. And organizations can prevent that from happening. Another thing I think is an issue is sometimes organizations, they don't know what's happening, you know, at the middle management level. So they might have bad leaders in place and not realize a lot of employees are not gonna, you know, go above their boss and go tell a higher leader something negative about their boss, a fear of retaliation, b, fear of determination. Like if that person is reprimanded for that, that comes back down on them. So if you, as an organization, open up a space where people are able to come and talk freely about those types of things, you'll get a lot of answers. You know, I I think that feedback is the most valuable thing that you could get in an organization. Ask your people what you want to know, but make it done in a way where they you feel like they can answer honestly. And, you know, you'll get so much information that way, and you'll be able to create a great work environment. But I often think a lot of times upper management doesn't know what middle management is kind of thrown out there to people, and sometimes it's not good. And then another thing I think that they could do in in order to design a good workplace is training. It all starts from the beginning. Your entire onboarding, you know, process and procedure, how are you onboarding your new person? Are they getting a clear outline of the expectations and what they're gonna be doing and where they go if they have questions, what their job really is and what it looks like? And then are they gonna be trained in order to meet those expectations? If you don't do that well, they are going to probably fail. And then it's it's not their fault, you know? And so designing that, it I just don't think it takes much. It takes, you know, it takes thought and it takes the ability to want to do it and want to do it in a way that's gonna be, you know, really efficient for everybody. But I think it can be done anywhere. It just you just have to sit down and and think about what do you want out of your your business and your people, and then create a system that provides that.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Oh, I agree. Again, you're speaking my love language, and again, I'm a recovered, you know, abuser of people. Like I was hard on people. I was I was bad. It was the only way I knew how, right? But I, you know, I saw the light. Now I was just talking to my brother, like almost this exact conversation yesterday. I was coming back from my run and and we were talking about stuff, and they the he's like, just like kind of talking about the work that I do, some of the work that I do. And he's like, I don't understand why you would have to do that, because like if the boss tells people what to do, why don't they just do it? And I'm like, Damn, wouldn't it be awesome if like you could just send an email and people would just come comply? But that's not reality, right? We're living with human beings. You also pointed out there's some middle management that they're you know their methods are undermining the mission of the organization, naturally, and then you could tie it to a uh training thing if or premature promotion, right? Like me, I was one of those. But I think there's a couple of things. One in terms of designing a system, and I haven't seen this anywhere. So if you know of a place that does this, I'd love to like to talk to those people first, but just even hear about it. It's like how many managers, middle managers, executive, doesn't matter, director level, how many of those people or how much of their compensation and advancement is tied to the career growth of their people? Like formally, you know, and you're doing evaluations or whatever when you're trying to figure out if people are gonna get raises and bonuses and all those beautiful things. How many of them are like is that a metric or could it be a really valuable metric to signal that this middle manager, this director, this executive is indeed earning their keep in terms of not just delivering for the external client, but developing the internal talent. What do you think about that idea? Have you seen it out there?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Maybe a little bit. Maybe in, you know, possibly if someone's getting a performance-based bonus, you know, it's tied into the level of, you know, what their direct reports have, you know, attributed to the business, or maybe there's some different goals that they need to meet. I'm sure that exists somewhere. And then going back to like what your brother said about, you know, people just doing it, it's funny because sometimes you think that, right? Everyone's an adult. So if you tell them to do something, they should just do it. But there's always a reason. If someone doesn't do what you just asked them to do, there's gotta be a reason, right? And so you got you have to find out why. And it usually, and again, this is just my opinion, it usually stems from some kind of confusion or lack of clarity. If it's not that, like it's usually like, well, I'm not really sure how to do it. And are they in a position where they feel comfortable asking a question, you know, because if they ask a question, are they gonna get reprimanded for asking the question? Or is it gonna come with, oh, sure, like let me explain it in a different way. Sorry that I didn't, you know, explain it in a way that made sense. If they're in a place where they feel like they can ask clarity questions and get good responses, then they will. But if they are afraid to ask the question, you know, they're either gonna do it wrong or they're just like not gonna do it at all. Or there's another reason, and you you just need to ask them if you're asking an employee to do things and they're not doing it, you really need to get with them and see what's going on. And then you need to take action from there. If they're just simply not doing their job, then you know, we know the repercussions from that and the consequences from just not executing what you're supposed to be doing. So I think that, yes, I do think that sometimes leaders potential for them to get their performance evaluation at the very least. Maybe it's not tied to their salary, but their performance evaluation should be tied to what are you doing to serve, you know, your people? Are you helping them grow or are you stunting them from their growth? And then it if it's not tied to performance, it should or to salary, it should be at least tied to that. It's kind of like I think about it, I come from the medical field, you know, I spent 25 years in the medical field before making this transition, you know, over to construction, which is very different. But in the medical field, in the United States, you know, a lot of people are sick. We we go to the doctor, doctors get paid to give us more medication, more scans. Like the sicker we are, the more money the doctor makes. In other countries, doctors do not get paid if the patient is sick, right? So, because the job, the expectation is that your patient is healthy. And so if you have sick patients, your doctor, the doctor better be doing everything they can to help make them better. You know, it's just like if you're a healthy patient, so if you have a list of 100 patients and 95 of them are doing great, you're doing your job. I mean, of course, people are gonna have you know illnesses and and things like that that, you know, um can't be prevented. But the overall idea is that doctors are paid if their patients are doing well. So it's kind of the same thing here. Like if leader, like your leaders, your people should be doing well. If your people are not doing well, it's on you as the leader to figure out, you know, why. And I'm I don't blame that all on the leaders. There are for sure some employees out there who are simply just not good employees. So I want to make it clear, I don't want to sound like everything is the the leader's fault because there are definitely people out there who are not owning their end of the bargain, they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. I hate to say this word because I hate it, but sometimes people are uncoachable. And if you have people like that, then they just don't probably belong in your organization, or maybe they just don't belong in that role. Maybe they're culchable in a different role. But if you spend enough time with someone and you can't get them to get to the level that they need to be at, they might just not be the right person. That's not necessarily the leader's fault. It's the leader's responsibility to try and to see what they can do, you know, to help that person. And, you know, each case is a little bit different, but the lead it's not the leader's job to like fix everybody and make everybody do their job. It's the leader's job to lead and to be there. And if you think of it more as like a coach and a mentor rather than leadership, it's like I'm here to help you achieve your goals. Like, tell me what you want to be doing and let's make a path and a plan to get there. I mean, that's really what you should be doing. I believe in servant leadership. So I believe in being, you know, in the mud with the people doing what they're doing. I I am not the type of leader that's like, I'm up here and I'm gonna tell everybody what to do, and I'm just sit up here and watch them. I'm gonna help, you know, I want to jump in and see what I can do to help get us where we need to be.

Willing Versus Capable Team Members

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yeah. Oh my God. Oh, again, you just keep open up buckets and buckets. I love it. So, one thing I did this, don't tell my former boss, but I figured out, like, oh, part of my responsibility, and this was again, like we said it earlier, right? Like, you got to want leadership because leadership is not. I I remember when I was an installer, I wanted to be a foreman because in my head all they did was eat tacos and go to meetings. And then I wanted to be a superintendent because all they did was drive around, right? Like, and then I got into the role, like, oh my God, there's a lot of responsibility here, and a lot of learning that I had to do. So if you are not ready for more responsibility and hungry to learn, that leadership thing that you're crying about may not be what you need. Now, the big thing, the awareness that I had that I think really shifted my thinking was as a foreman, superintendent, and so forth, the my input was impacting the financial status of the person on my team, but more importantly, was impacting the livelihood of his family, his or her family, right? Like the what schools, what kind of clothes, like I had real impact and responsibility for the individual's career and how that played out for the next generation or two of their family. Yeah, which when I started looking that way, I'm like, oh my god, like I could, I'm doing it really wrong. I'm ruining people's lives. So then I was I did a cheat because I knew that what I would do was I would, you know, the the high performers, right? The folks that are like showing up and doing the thing and learning and growing and taking on more responsibility, I would fight for them to get big raises because man, they were knocking it out, it made my life easier. But secretly, my plan was to get them raised up so much that they were just within an inch or so of what I was making. And then my boss would say, Man, we got to give you a big raise, we got to do a course correction because your guy would be all your remaining like a good idea. But ultimately, I think you know, there's one framework that I happened upon, and I used it a lot once I matured, in terms of like weeding out the the people that just don't want to play. It was looking for two things are they willing and are they capable? If they're capable, but they're not willing, they gotta go. If they're willing and capable, then let's coach them up, let's give them resources and support and run them through a few cycles. If they still can't execute, then maybe there's a different role for them because of their willingness, right? Um, but lack of willingness, the worst thing I did for too many years was keep them on the team. Because what that communicated to those that were willing was that I didn't appreciate that. What do you think about that? Yeah, you've seen it.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Oh, yeah. It's one of those, it's like it's like one of those things, it spreads like wildfire, right? You have you might have a team of a bunch of people who are doing a good job, you have that one, and you let them keep getting away with things, all that's gonna do is spread to everybody else. All everyone's thinking is, well, they do it, and now you start now you have a whole team of people like that. That's it's it's a dangerous, you know, territory to be in. And sometimes it's because there's a couple of reasons I think that that happens. A, some leaders don't like their leaders, but they don't have the ability to put someone, you know, in their place of where they need to be. Like they don't have the ability to have that conversation. They're worried about, you know, conflict, they don't like confrontation. And so they kind of just hope that that goes away and they don't want to have the hard conversations. And so unfortunately, what they don't realize is now, you know, that's just spreading. Now you're now you had one and now you're gonna have, you know, 12 potentially. And so and sometimes it's just sometimes unfortunately, people come with scars from other places, right? Like maybe that employee had a bad time at their last place with leadership, and they're just a little bit scarred from their last place of employment and they don't know how to act right, you know, they don't really make a mistake, they're afraid to say something wrong because of whatever happened to them at their last place. And so I think making sure that as a leader you have conversations with people and you get to know them on a level of like, you know, you got to ask, like you asked at your presentation, one of your first questions was, you know, what kind of learner are you? You know, do you like, are you visual? Are you auditory? Are you hands-on? And then you ask that question because you want to know that way you can present in a way that's gonna be right for that person. It's kind of the same thing as a leader, like have one-on-one conversations and ask them, you know, what's your what what style do you prefer in communication? You know, maybe they're better at email and you're over here calling them all the time, you know, and that it's just too much for them. It's like you have to ask those questions so you know. And if you think like, well, they should just do it the way I want to do it, then, you know, unfortunately, that that doesn't always work. I mean, if you want to do that and you keep doing that and you keep having the same issues, then, you know, you might want to change up your system a little bit. But I really don't think there's harm in in having conversations with people and asking them questions like that, you know, and you know, what what's your best communication style or what kind of leadership style, you know, do you work best with? Doesn't mean you have to change your leadership style, but you should kind of have a a grasp on what works for them and what doesn't, because maybe your leadership style is clearly not one that they are receptive to, you know, and then you have to figure out what you're gonna do from there. And again, doesn't mean you have to change, you know, what you're doing, but I I think it's good to know what people what works best for people if you are working with them every single day and trying to get you know good work out of them.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Oh, for sure. You know, here's one pointer that I took for for me as the employee, like the direct report to help my leader, I just tell them straight up, like, hey, look, I'm not sure what, like, you know, in the interview and you're starting to meet the new manager or whatever first week or so. Like, look, just so you know, I do not respond to negative attention. To me, all attention is good. So if you're getting after me, I all I know is you like me and you talk, you're talking to me, so you like me. Like my brain doesn't compute like, oh, I'm in trouble. Now, if you want to get my discretionary effort, right? That little the extra that I have that's not on my job description, all you gotta do is pat me on the back, feed my ego, right? Celebrate me a little bit, and uh or and or feed me, and I'll do whatever. Like you cannot threaten me into working harder because I don't I'm stubborn and I don't care. But if you you know show me some recognition, show me some appreciation, that is all it takes to get the most out of me. Also, I'm also very clear with them and saying, hey, look, when you gotta give me feedback on my performance, like don't do the poo-poo sandwich where you give the good, that the good. Don't do that, and they're like, Why not? And I said, Because my brain is a little twisted. I do the math, so if you give me three pieces of feedback and two out of three are good, I'm batting 600. I'm on my way to the Halloween. I don't get the problem. Yeah, so when you gotta give me critical feedback, I need you just to hit me with that critical feedback because my brain will twist it up, and they're like, really? Like, yeah, like you're not gonna hurt my feelings. Just tell me if you muddy it up, I I won't filter, I'll filter out the good.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Yeah, it's such a good point because and not everybody's gonna be like that, right? A lot of people are gonna want to hear the the two good ones because that's all if the if they only hear the negative, that's all they're gonna focus on. And then they're gonna think, oh my gosh, I'm not doing my job right. I, you know, I suck, I'm horrible. But I love what you said about praise because it goes so far. And I think sometimes people think, you know, we're we're all adults, like we don't need that. It's incredible the amount of times I hear from people that they just want to be told they're doing a good job. They just want to know they're doing a good job. Why wouldn't you? Everybody wants to know we're doing a good job, you know, if we are. And if you're going, if you're a leader and your people are you notice that things are, you know, going well, you have a department and um they're hitting their numbers or they're they're bringing in more business or whatever it is, tell them. Tell them, hey, great job. I'm a huge proponent of praise and especially and don't don't lie. Like if you you don't have to make something like that. Yeah. But if when you see that it's good, point it out and tell somebody, hey, that would you did a great job. We have something here at Field Verified. We fill out a form every Friday and it just asks you like, what are your goals for next week? What's something that was a win for the week? What was something that was a struggle? Like, what do you need help with? And then there's a section at the end where you can give high fives. And so you can give anyone in the company, you know, a high five, and we get to do this every week. You can do it every day if you want to. And it's so like one of my favorite things is giving out high fives because I love to give people praise. But I'm not gonna lie, if somebody gives me a high five, I'm gonna, you know, it feels good too. Like I get a smile across my face, I'm like, oh, cool. And sometimes like it's like something I never would have thought of. And I'm like, oh wow, that's so cool that they gave me a high five for that. I didn't even like think that was a big deal, you know? It's because to me, it's all about the little things. So I feel like for For me, I do a lot of you know little things in my job. And so when someone notices one of those, that's that's pretty cool that, you know, and that's not why I do it. But I mean, it's still nice that when somebody recognizes it and brings it up. And I think everybody deserves praise. I don't care how old you are, I don't care how long you've been at your your job, I don't care who's giving it. And just to be clear, you don't have to be a leader to have leadership qualities. Anybody can give praise, anybody can, you know, point out something that's going well. Um, if you're in a group and you're you can tell your coworker, hey, that what you did yesterday, you know, that presentation that you made, that was so good. Or, hey, I just heard you get off the phone with that client. You handled that situation so well. You know, anybody can do that, and it it means the same amount of you know, of accomplishment to the person getting it. Obviously, when leaders do it, it's that's great because it it ensures that you're on track and you're doing your job correctly, but anybody can can do those things and make an impact, you know. And that also helps the work culture. I I just I'm a very strong believer that everybody has the ability to make a good work culture, everybody in the work culture. And so just know you don't have to be in leadership in order to make an impact. Right.

Hard Conversations Without The Drama

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Well, and I'm gonna add to that like praise is the easy path, it's the cobblestones towards the path of having the critical conversations, right? Because if I've never had any kind of performance interaction or or communication about how uh a direct report is performing, positive or negative, if I've never had that, when I gotta have that performance conversation, it gets really big and really heavy. But if I've been just you know, hey man, that call you like you said, that's a beautiful look. Man, I was I was being nosy. I heard you that was you handled that call well, nice work. That simple, two seconds, and so now that when I do that a few times, or hey man, like you're kind of rude with that person, doesn't have to be a meeting and a pip and all this crap. Just like, dude, you chill, are you? Because that was kind of harsh, that was a little rough. Then that sets the stage and opens the door for when we have to have that real heavy conversation. If we have to have it, it's not this foreign alien experience, and so you mentioned it earlier, and I'm with you 100%. Like, I love treating people nice, I like being happy and positive, but you better believe it. I do not hesitate, I'm not afraid of saying, you know what, this ain't working. Your effort, your energy is stealing from the team. You gotta go, or you need to take actions in this time frame. Tell me what resources you need to get there. Because if not, you gotta go. So, what pointer do you have for folks that struggle with having those that avoid conflict? What pointers do you have for people that avoid conflict? Managers specifically.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

Um managers, you have to you have to sit down and think what do you want your outcome to be? Like, what do you want? You have a team of people and they're not doing exactly what you you're wanting them to do. So, what are you gonna do about it? You can, I mean, avoiding it is not gonna be the solution, it's not gonna help the situation, you know. So never you have to and you, I think too, I think you have to change your mindset and reframe it. And if you're thinking it's conflict, it's not conflict. You're in a leadership position. This is a conversation, this is not an argument. This doesn't have to be tense, it doesn't have to be awkward, but it is necessary. So if you can flip your mindset instead of thinking this is bad, this is negative, that think of it as this is helpful for that person because I want that person to be successful in their role. And they're not gonna get there if they don't understand what they need to be doing. And the only person that can tell them what they need to be doing is me. And so it I just say flip it. I have a daughter, I have three kids. I have two daughters, and one of them, two of them are in their 20s, and she, one of them was uh in a leadership role, and she's she's the sweetest like girl ever. And so, but she was in a leadership role, and it was hard for her to have conversations that when she had to kind of like reprimand somebody or tell them something, and she struggled with that, and she's like, I don't know how to, I don't I don't like conflict. And I'm like, it's not conflict, it's you're at work and you're having a conversation with someone who needs to do something different, and that's all it is, you know. And once you do it and you do it a couple of times, it becomes very natural for you. And so I would say struggling with it, get it done. And if you really need to, you know, try and practice before you have that conversation, try and practice with someone that you trust and that can give you some good feedback and just kind of like role-play it first. If you really feel like you're gonna struggle through it and see what that kind of looks like as you practice, that person can kind of point out some factors, you know, or some of the things that you might want to, you know, change or alter a little bit and then go in and do it. But it's just like anything, like the first day at your job, you didn't know how to do everything. You learned it over time, you know. And just like I would say, like the athletes that I pointed out earlier, like they didn't come out of the womb, you know, knowing how to play basketball as an expert. They had to practice and they had to over time, they got better and better and better. And it's the same thing in like a leadership role and having those tough conversations. The more you do them, the better you get at them. But I think if you can always remember that the person that you're talking to is going to benefit from the conversation because they're going to learn something, if you think of it that way that you're helping, I think that becomes a little bit easier. And if you on the flip side, like that's if you struggle with conflict. If you struggle with giving praise, try it in non-work, you know, places. Like if you are in the coffee shop and you like someone's shirt, say, Oh, hey, oh my god, I love your shirt. That's that's so cute. Or I love your hair. Oh, oh, I love your shoes, bro. Those are so cool. Like, whatever it is, like you can practice by just telling a perfect stranger. And again, be genuine. Do not tell someone you like their haircut if you don't, because you'll they'll know. But like be find something genuinely, like genuinely that you like from somebody, point it out and practice that way, and just tell a random stranger that you like something about them. Cause A, um, that person's gonna feel really good when you just tell them something really positive, but it also makes you feel good too when you tell someone something positive, and so it's a win-win, and you're practicing giving that praise, and you have you have nothing to lose by doing that, you know.

Switching From Healthcare To Construction

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Right, it's a low risk investment, like you said it. You got nothing. So, folks, if you didn't catch that, I'm gonna say it again in I'm gonna put it in plumbers' terms because I'm simple. You got to get the reps in, like being a manager, having direct reports, there's a lot of responsibility, and those skills, and I agreed, right? We talked about a little while ago. Um, sure, some people are born like you with like natural born leadership energy, but not everybody is, but and they are skills that can be developed. And so if giving praise is a weakness, practice, get the reps in, right? Like for me, it's easy when I get a cup cup of coffee. I'm like, Thank you, this is awesome. It's nice and hot. I appreciate that. Or or what I love to do, because I like to steal smiles, I call it stealing smiles, is I will come, I will just compliment them on their end. Man, thank you for being like high energy, and they smile, like, yeah, I gotta smile, or thank you for smiling sometimes, and they're not even smiling, and then they'll smile like there it is, that's the one I was looking for. That's silly. But the fact is, getting the reps in is something that you pointed to, right? If you struggle giving praise, practice giving praise. If you struggle, and I think the other thing, like giving critical feedback, practice giving it. Yeah, and like if you don't like the coffee, like you know, thanks for the coffee, but it it took a little longer than I expected. Are you okay? Right? Like, maybe not in the coffee because the next cup might have some extra sauce in it, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, but one thing you did say is like reframing, especially with the hard conversations or the critical conversations, reframing it and going back to serving leadership, right? I am serving this person. My job to support and serve them is to point out the things that they need to improve on. By pointing that out, I'm helping them accelerate and meet the ex or at least meet the expectation. By not doing it, I am underserved, I am failing to serve. And so read that that reframe I think is powerful for a lot of people out there. Um, okay. Man, we could talk about this forever, but I'm curious. And now you're in construction. Yeah, what was that transition like?

SPEAKER_02 54:14

It's been it's been a transition, you know. I don't know. It's funny. It's I think honestly, the biggest thing for me is the medical field is very compassion-based, right? So 25 years of you're dealing with patients who are oftentimes dealing with something difficult. I've worked in a lot of specialties where unfortunately I've been in situations where bad news has been delivered, you know, and so most physicians have to have a certain bedside manner in order to, you know, deliver that news or to care for people, or may a lot of times it's dealing with family members and not even the patient. I've been in lots of situations where I've had to talk to parents or spouses with bad news. And so it's like a softer, you know, type of communication style. And then you come to construction and everything's very just like direct and very like timely, right? Because everything is like, we got to get this done. And everybody is just like way more like blunt and direct and like focused and just like says what they need to say. And so I honestly think that's just the biggest transition for me. And not neither one are like, it's not like it's bad, it's not like it went from something good to bad or anything like that. It's just different. It's um understanding the way that things are done and the way that people talk is just differently, and just kind of going from that like softer, you know, just compassion-based, like soft talking to like quick and like direct, you know, which I actually like because like I was just gonna ask you, that feels like a comfort zone for you, maybe. Yeah, like but it is. I think it just took time to like get used to a little bit and like transition over. But I am like a very um uh fast-paced person. I am a very like, let's just get it done. What do we need to do? Like, tell it to me straight. And so but I think with a little twist, I think with a little bit of like compassion in there still, like a little bit of uh I'm the type of person, like it's not gonna be effective for me to like kind of come at me and like be super like direct or yelling or anything like that. And so I think there's a nice mix of remembering your your people skills and then but being direct and like to the point and getting things done. I think there's like maybe that's what I kind of bring is just the mixture of them both and being able to like relay information in in a way that like that fast, you know, directness, but with a little bit of like feelings, you know, behind it.

New Respect After The Jobsite

SPEAKER_00 56:53

So oh no, I thank you for that. I have a lot of friends that are in in the education space, and I didn't, of course, I'm blind to the way I speak. I mean, I know I've been told a million times how abrasive and short I am in my communication. I've gotten better, uh, but back in the day, I would the amazing woman that I was dating at the time. She was an educator, she still is an educator, anyways. We're hanging out with their friends, and one of the guys, he's a he was he's an awesome guy, right? He's a writer, he's an English teacher, fourth grade English teacher, super cool. And he's like, He's like, Jess, why are you so aggressive? Like, are you mad? Like, no, what are you talking about? He's like, You just it just seems like you're mad. I'm like, no. And we hung around more after that. He's like, you know what? I figured it out. I said, What are you talking about? He's like, It's because you're from construction. Like, you to us, we think you're mad and aggressive, even like I'm instigating a fight. And I'm like, really? They're like, Yeah, it feels like that. He's like, but that's just the way you talk. I'm like, well, yeah, because in like you said it in construction, it's like let's get to the point we got stuff to do. Like, what's the problem? What's the issue? What are you talking about? That's stupid, and there's it's not a problem. Right now, we say it's not a problem, but it is, it does erode connection, like it erodes human connection. And so what really excites me about you and Field Verified, you bringing that compassion because we're lacking it in our industry, and like I you know this, we can have amazing business success as construction companies and be compassionate, like you don't have to squeeze all of the compassion out in order to be financially successful and serve clients, you can be human too, and so you bring especially to that group because they're really amazing people over there, and then furthermore, like what y'all are doing as an organization, I think is a beacon for other organizations out there. Like, man, if you would put this much uh we'll just call it energy uh towards designing a system for your people, you'll have you can have massive business success and growth and impact in people's lives because the industry needs it so I mean, sister, if you haven't been in other construction companies like offices, it's worse. Like they're face out there that it's it's miserable. We deal with that, that's how the the the industry has been. But you said it earlier, people have choices now, and people aren't gonna put up with weak leadership, people aren't gonna put up with an environment where they don't grow and they can't thrive, and they're gonna go to places like you guys. So I applaud you for for not getting scared away by all the construction freakos and bringing your experience to to these folks.

The Promise You’re Intended To Be

SPEAKER_02 59:59

Um it's not bad here either. It it's just so funny. It's just like the only thing I I just notice like the difference, you know, and just the way that communication is just done in general. And but it's cool. I I love that I transitioned over. I really love the construction industry. I love everybody that I've got to meet. I got to go out on site yesterday for my first time, which was super cool. It was really good. I was really excited, I got work boots, so that was cool. I felt really official, had like a safety vest and helmet. So I love that. I love because I'm in here every day and I hear the things that we're doing and the different testing, and so it was so cool to be able to go out and actually see it. And it just makes so much more sense when you can like see something that you hear about all the time. And really, it was really cool. So I was on a site with like lots and lots of other trades and different companies, and I was taking it all in and just you know, assessing like it's so crazy how so many I was at like a Target being built. You know, I go in Target, you know, all the time and I just walk into Target, but to see it being built and the ground up and all the different people there and and all their roles, like the tiniest things that you would never think about, you know, going into a target. And it makes me appreciate the construction field so much more and and the the people that work in it. Like, I mean, we're in Arizona, so just knowing like what they do in the summers and just like being out, and even in the cold, like because we we spray water. And so in the winters, you know, you're getting blasted with with this water that's being sprayed for a considerable amount of time, and it's got it's freezing, you know. Like yesterday, it was like in a pool of water, and our guys just like they never complain. Our guys and our our girls, they they just go out and they do the job, and just being on site gave me a real, even more appreciation for the field and everybody that works in it and all the little things that that they do to make you know buildings that we go in and probably take for granted, you know, never even think about how this all came together. Love the new appreciation for that and all the people in it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

Oh my God, amazing. Okay. Well, I don't want to monopolize all of you. I mean, I do want to monopolize all your time, but well, you got big things to do over there. So we're gonna transition into the Grand Slam home run question. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay, and I'm excited because just like you said, I mean, you just said it. You you know how many people I know with your level of responsibility that have never been out to see what the workers actually do, like that in itself speaks volumes of of the caliber of human being that you are. I know that you you've come from a different industry, which is a big giant change, you've got a family, and you're all about making things better for people, like designing a system in businesses that serve people. So, all of that combined gets me jazzed up about what what your response is gonna be to this question because I think it's gonna be meaningful. So here we go. Okay, what is the promise you are intended to be?

Subscribe And Grab The Free PDF

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

What is the promise I'm intended to be? I think the promise I'm intended to be is to, I always say when I leave this world, I want to leave behind just good humans and a good, like I want to leave a legacy of that I provided space and availability to help people be their best. So, you know, I want that for my kids. I want them, they're just great people and I want them to always just be, you know, I want to leave behind good humans, but also just the people, anyone, anyone that I've ever worked with, anyone that I've ever, you know, talked to. I I hope to inspire people to do their best and to be their best. And so if there's any way I can help them with that, that's something I just love doing. Again, it is something that I'm passionate about. So the promise I intend to be is just to help people be better if that's what they choose to do. If they want that, if they want to come and figure out ways where they could be, you know, better in certain areas or supported, or just if they just want to vent and have me listen, anything I can do to help them be better is the promise I intend to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

Oh my God. I knew it. You are amazing. Did you have fun?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

I had so much fun. Yeah, thank you so much. Like this was great. I I'm like you, I can talk about this stuff all day. It's kind of like funny to be so passionate about something, but I truly, truly am. I want everybody to be able to work in good work environments. I want everybody to be able to work um for you know, have good leaders. And if there's people out there that, you know, want to be better, I want to be able to help them. So you know, just really feel like that's what we could all do. We could all just make great workplaces. And, you know, if we're gonna be somewhere eight, nine hours a day, we better make the best out of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

So yeah, exactly. But at least have fun and help people. Like, come on, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

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