May 29, 2025
Beyond Blueprints: Emotional Intelligence in Construction with Brent Darnell
Emotional intelligence pioneer Brent Darnell takes us through his remarkable 25-year journey transforming the construction industry's approach to people. With disarming honesty and profound insights, he reveals how human connection stands at the core of solving our industry's most pressing challenges—from mental health crises to workforce development struggles.
"It goes beyond just being a better leader or a better manager of a construction process," Brent explains. "They become better human beings." This powerful truth underlies his revolutionary work, which began in 2000 when introducing emotional intelligence training to skeptical construction professionals was considered radical. Having superintendents practice yoga and meditation seemed outlandish then, but Brent persisted, eventually proving how these practices enhance performance while reducing personal wear and tear.
The conversation highlights how our industry has evolved from purely adversarial relationships to more collaborative approaches, creating an urgent need for the very skills Brent champions. As he shares the story of a superintendent who transformed from being removed from a project to becoming COO in just ten months through emotional intelligence training, we witness the tangible power of this work.
Most compelling is Brent's exploration of how the "respect for people" pillar of Lean construction remains overlooked despite its critical importance. His practical advice for building better connections—daily application, reflection, and self-awareness—offers listeners actionable steps toward immediate improvement in their professional and personal lives.
Visit brentdarnell.com for free emotional intelligence assessments, body battery inventories, and resources that can help you become a better leader and human being. What construction challenges might you solve by improving your emotional intelligence and human connection skills?
Connect with Brent at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentdarnell/
Make yourself a priority and get more done: https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
00:00 - Becoming Better Human Beings
05:42 - The People Issues in Construction
13:23 - Human Connection as Root Cause
21:27 - The Early Days of Emotional Intelligence
33:01 - The Human Side of Lean
43:51 - Building Trust in Construction Teams
55:12 - From Engineer to Author and Publisher
01:01:52 - Curiosity and Lifelong Learning
WEBVTT
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It goes beyond just being a better leader or a better manager of a construction process.
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They become better human beings.
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What is going on?
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L&m family Back again.
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And I got to tell you I'm a little extra, extra jazz, maybe even starstruck, because the guest we have today.
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I was having flashbacks in preparation for this conversation when I decided to like quit my real job and not wear pants every day.
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Several people said you need to talk to this guy Like this.
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It sounds like this is what you're doing and I'm like well, who is he?
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And all today it came back oh, this is Brent.
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This is the guy everybody was telling me about.
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So I'm super, super stoked.
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He is an OG, like the OG on people issues in the AEC space architect, engineer, construction, like all of that.
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When it comes to people.
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He has been playing this game since before it was like a popular thing which is super, super interesting, and then you might be thinking like people issues.
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We talk about people issues, talking about mental stuff that has something to do with people, physical stuff, people and emotional stuff and not just stuff, but like performance, mental performance, physical performance and emotional performance.
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He's been at it for a very long time.
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I'm just a little scrub, a little squinkly, trying to tinker around in this space and I'm like over the moon that I get to interview him and introduce you guys out there to mr brent.
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Mr brent darnell, and before we get into that, if this is your first time here, this is the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to meet amazing human beings just like you who are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it.
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I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we are going to get to know Mr Brent Darnell.
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Mr Brent, how are you, my friend?
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Doing great Things are awesome Probably better than I deserve.
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Life is good.
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I'm loving what I'm doing.
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I'm really seeing that the industry is catching up now and really focusing on all the people stuff and I think it's because it kind of bit us in the butt a little bit with mental health stuff and substance use disorders and workforce development and even that diversity and equity and those kind of things.
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I think those are all the people issues and I think we sort of shoved them under the carpet for the longest time.
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And now they're like they're crises, and now we're really starting to pay attention.
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I mean, that that's my take on it.
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Maybe I got it all wrong, but that's my take on it brand.
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I agree a hundred percent.
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Here's what I see happening.
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We can't just throw money at the problem anymore, and by problem I mean the people problem, right, the shortage of people let's forget about bringing people in Taking care of, appreciating and valuing the people that we have is a problem, and the volume of work that's available right now is I mean, it just keeps getting bigger and things need to go faster.
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And then there's this thing, brent, that you probably read about it, spoken it, spoken about and seen it a bunch of times.
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Everybody knew that at this time, like this decade, the baby boomers were going to be leaving the industry.
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Yeah, and we're now yeah, it wasn't a big shock.
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We sort of knew this was coming right for a decade.
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and now it's what happened to all the experience, bro, it's been happening for a long time, yeah, and so because you have all of these things, and then you know what, maybe what couldn't have been foresaw is the dwindling number of people that want to come in to the industry and and the like you said, the substance abuse, suicide, like people not staying in the industry, or rather their lives deteriorating because of the conditions in the industry, like it's the perfect storm for companies, decision makers to say, oh crap, we got to do it different.
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Yeah.
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What do you think?
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I think it's so true, and I've boiled it down to all of these the root cause to me is human connection.
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Human connection so that's what I've been focusing on the last couple of years is how do we connect better as human beings?
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And that involves all kinds of things Great listening, great communication, respect, trust of things.
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Great listening, great communication, respect, trust just really getting in the shoes of the other person, understanding them in a profound way.
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And then that connection leads to so many other things.
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They feel safe, they feel like they belong, they feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves, they feel respected.
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And when you get all that going on, plus, you want to sprinkle on top, just make their lives better.
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And when you get all that going on plus, you want to sprinkle on top, just make their lives better.
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Why would you go anywhere else?
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Why would you go to any other company or any other industry when you have that?
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Why would you risk that?
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Yes, I have a theory and right now everybody, every company, every single one, is offering competitive pay and benefits.
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Right, that's back when I was, I just got my journeyman license and TD Industries had started doing work here in San Antonio.
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This was back in 1999, probably and the big draw was they had benefits.
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That was a big deal, because nobody really subcontractors didn't really have benefits.
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They had some, maybe vacation or something, but they had all the benefits.
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That's not a thing anymore.
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Everybody has them.
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Everybody's offering competitive pay, everybody's offering benefits.
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From their perspective Maybe it's not competitive, but from the employer's perspective it is right.
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Yeah.
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And so my theory is this is the decision makers, the influencers in those organizations that figure out how to demonstrate, like you said, appreciation and invest in the human being beyond their job description.
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Yeah, they're going to win the talent game.
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What do you think?
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Yeah, For all the companies that don't do it.
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People are going to be leaving their companies and going to these companies that do this and you wonder why don't they get that and why don't they invest in that?
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But they don't.
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This guy, Wally Adamczyk, who does a lot of the same stuff.
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We were having this discussion.
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We struggle with relevance every day, Like we get the feeling sometimes that 90% of the contractors out there just think we're total idiots and don't know what we're doing and this is total, a waste of time and a bunch of crap and why are we even talking about this?
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So we struggle with that about once a week, right.
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But then you see the people that are doing it, you see the companies that are doing it and the people you're working with and the results and that kind of keeps us going right.
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Yeah, you see the impact and it puts fuel in your tank like, okay, let me go against the friction.
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Well, and so that's today, in 2025.
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You started over 20 years ago down this path 2000 was the first program I did where we looked at emotional intelligence.
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We had these guys up and doing yoga every morning, yoga, meditation.
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You should have seen it, man.
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It was so funny.
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They would walk in the room at the hotel and it would be like kind of dark and there'd be some music playing and they would go back out and look and think is this the right place?
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What is this?
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Why are we doing this?
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They did this stuff and they felt the difference and they did some basic breathing and meditation and stuff.
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It was really effective for them as a miraculous.
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And some didn't want to admit that they did yoga.
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So they would say, hey, I think this yoga is a bunch of crap.
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And I'd say, well, it's okay, it's not for everybody.
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He said, yeah, but that breathing, the breathing stuff really helps me.
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I said, well, don't do yoga, just do that, just do the breathing stuff.
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I love it.
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That's hilarious, yes.
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Whatever you need to practice, bro, just do that and since then I've gotten my yoga teacher certification.
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So I'm a certified instructor now.
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Not that I'm going to teach, but I just wanted to do a little bit more with my own practice and deepen my practice.
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But it really gave me a lot of insights into an in-depth view of yoga and what it can do for you physically, mentally, emotionally.
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It's not for everybody, I tell people.
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If you don't like it, that's cool, but find your yoga, whatever that is.
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It could be walking in nature, it could be listening to music, it could be silence, it could be fishing.
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It could be listening to music, it could be silence, it could be fishing, it could be hunting Something that restores you in some way.
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Find what yours is.
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Yeah, so 25 years ago I mean, that's an interesting time and I'm referring to like my frame of reference.
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I see people nowadays every now and then when I'm doing my work, people look at me like, are you okay?
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Yeah, why You're not the same guy I knew 15 years ago.
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Right, a little bit Now.
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Two things are pinging in my head.
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One is why did you go down this path?
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What was it that triggered you to go down this path 25 years ago?
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The other thing that's pinging around in there is how hard was it back then compared to now?
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So I was working for Skanska at the time in Atlanta and they had this leadership program.
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That was an international program.
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Skanska was buying a bunch of international companies at the time and they said they wanted an American to run it.
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So I threw my hat in that ring and I ran this program that was an international program.
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Skotska was buying a bunch of international companies at the time and they said they wanted an American to run it.
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So I threw my hat in that ring and I ran this program for a couple of years and then at the end of the two years they said well, we're sort of done with this program, we're going to do something different.
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Go back to Atlanta.
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And I went back to Atlanta and I said, hey, man, I've learned all this great stuff about leadership and training and development and all this stuff.
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I want to do that here.
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And they went we don't need that crap, why would we do that here?
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We're fine, yeah, we're good, we don't need it, but thank you for offering.
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And then they said but we want you to go back and manage projects again.
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So they said there's a gymnasium at a high school, we want you to project manage.
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And I just I could not get excited about that after doing this international program for two years.
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It was a five-week program spread throughout the year.
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We were in places like Buenos Aires and Moscow and Prague and London and New York.
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And it was like wow, and so it was a great program.
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So I decided at the time I just said no, thank you, I don't want to manage projects again, I'm going to start my own business and do this stuff for real.
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And they just went yeah, good luck with that yeah.
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I said you'll be crawling back begging to manage a gymnasium in Albany.
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Georgia, georgia.
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And it was tough in the beginning because I tried to be everything to everybody.
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I tried to do environmental consulting.
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I was a lead accredited professional and wrote the environmental management system for Skotska in Atlanta.
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So I had a lot of environmental stuff.
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I tried to do a bunch of different stuff and I tried all industries.
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I tried IT and accounting, really yeah, and I was getting some work, but nothing really took off until I said, look, this is what I'm doing Emotional intelligence and all those critical people skills with a focus on performance for the construction industry.
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That's it.
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When I did that, things started taking off.
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I started getting some traction.
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I had companies that say we want to do that here.
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So I just kept building that resume, working with different companies, really figuring out how this really works, because the first time I did it for companies, I would come in for a day, we'd do the emotional intelligence training, they'd take the evaluations and I'd go.
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Now you're totally magically healed.
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You're now great with people.
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Thank you very much.
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Mic drop and I'm out.
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It's time for the L&M family member shout out.
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And this one goes to my buddy, mr Brian Melcher.
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He was gracious enough in letting me victimize him and his team with some training communication capabilities AKA emotional bungee jumpers and he sent me this message.
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He says, bro, your training is making a difference.
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Thanks for being willing to come out and spend the time with us.
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Have a great week.
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So I got to go to Phoenix and hang out with them for a couple of days and with the Field Verify crew Amazing human beings out there also in the construction space and folks.
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If you get a chance to leave a comment, do a share, leave a review.
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You know I love them because I love attention and it gives me the opportunity to shout you out in the future.
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And that just didn't work at all.
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So we started saying, well, what does work?
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So we started extending the time and we put out six months and then to eight months and then to nine months and then a full year, and then we added accountability, partners within the groups, and then we added individual coaching and follow up, and so the more we kept sort of doing these iterations of programs, they got better and better, and so that's how it evolved.
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And in the beginning it was hard.
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25 years ago people it was mostly hard bid, it was mostly adversarial, siloed, even within companies, siloed and adversarial, and people didn't even think about like how could we do this in a different way?
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Lean was a gleam in someone's eye.
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I mean, that was 10 years before lean right, those guys started in the early nineties or late eighties, something like that.
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So that was just getting started.
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Design build was in its infancy CM, cm, at risk, all those collaborative project delivery methods were just not very well established, so people didn't need these skills.
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But then when they started getting the traction, then everybody said, wow, this is a different set of skills, we need to make these successful.
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So then that got more traction.
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So then it just kept building and I believe the industry started changing.
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And then they looked at me and said, hey, this is what we need right now.
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So that's when things started evolving and gelling and taking off.
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It's been such a great thing to see the industry doing those shifts and changes.
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I'm sure you've seen those changes as well.
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Right, I mean, I've lived it.
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Brett, I was a pretty good, we'll say, elbows and boots is how we got work done.
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I know for a fact that when I was a foreman and a superintendent for a mechanical contractor, there wasn't one client, one superintendent, project manager team for a GC that loved me, manager team for a GC that loved me, and it was.
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You remember the cartoon with Foghorn, leghorn and the dog.
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They would fight.
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They were the big rooster and the big dog.
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They'd clock out and then they were buddies.
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It's kind of how I like.
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Okay, I'm going to go to this job and I'm going to be fighting with Tommy today, and, okay, what are we going to fight about?
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Okay, I want to fight about this and see what he went.
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I went battle ready in my mindset.
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Yeah, it never occurred to me that, like collaboration and communication and like that would be a value, because I got there first and if I get there first I win.
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Period.
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Yeah, yeah, and so I've been able.
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Now I'm fortunate in that I work.
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I got lucky on the jobs that I had and the people that I got to work with in those jobs, because they influenced me.
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To look at it.
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There's a different way, it doesn't have to be this hard.
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And so by the time I started like applying the lean stuff and like getting beyond myself and thinking more about the team and the organization and the industry, I was not in the field anymore and it was like, man, I could have had so many friends.
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I didn't have friends.
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Yeah, like on the job site.
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I didn't have friends because if you couldn't, if I couldn't get anything out of you, I didn't need you, period.
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And like now, I know there's a lot of our brethren out there that still operate in that mode, but I was not.
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I was not proud or happy of the guy that I was, but it was what I had to do to perform and excel in the role.
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That was my frame anyways.
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So it was taxing on me emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and I had no here's the thing Like I had no idea.
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That's just the way it is or the way it works, and so over time I've gotten a little bit better.
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But well, I mean go ahead.
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That's one of the selling points.
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To superintendents I say how would you like to be more effective with a lot less wear and tear on you?
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Man boom yeah, they go hell, yeah, I want that.
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It's this people stuff that that will allow you to do that.
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Your job will be easier.
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It's a lot less wear and tear on you.
00:17:48.603 --> 00:18:05.269
It's just exhausting having to kick everybody's ass every day yes, that's the thing people don't know fighting, and it don't matter if it's like fighting, fighting like hands, fist, kicks, knees, elbows, or fighting mentally or verbally, you still get hit.
00:18:05.269 --> 00:18:11.201
Yeah, win or lose, it still hurts either way you leave stuff on the field.
00:18:11.201 --> 00:18:35.213
So, over that time particularly, I'm really curious about the 2000, because I remember that was kind of it was rare, I mean ultra, ultra, ultra rare to have a GC that was even doing some version of pole planning and it was seen as like this foo-foo, la-la stuff that didn't make us, they're just making us do it.
00:18:35.213 --> 00:18:37.188
It was the flavor of the month 25 years ago.
00:18:37.188 --> 00:18:59.365
Now what I'm curious about is of the folks that you've worked with in terms of what you wanted to deliver, like the experience or the transformation you wanted to spark in somebody, the transformation you wanted to spark in somebody, and what you actually got to see, or see witness glimpses of what.
00:18:59.365 --> 00:19:00.688
What's that like back then?
00:19:00.728 --> 00:19:04.736
well for me, like part of it was self-healing.
00:19:04.736 --> 00:19:08.184
I call myself a recovering jerk, right?
00:19:08.184 --> 00:19:18.224
I mean I'm a mechanical engineer, brain, technical person, smartest guy in the room, just a jerk Just putting down everybody.
00:19:18.224 --> 00:19:20.392
You're stupid, you're an idiot.
00:19:21.761 --> 00:19:22.083
Whenever?
00:19:22.123 --> 00:19:24.794
I could to put them down and put them in their place.
00:19:24.794 --> 00:19:28.468
Probably a lot of insecurity revolving around that as well.
00:19:28.468 --> 00:19:33.151
But so part of this was my own journey of just healing myself with this.
00:19:33.151 --> 00:19:45.256
So when I saw the results that I was getting and then saw the results that others were getting, it goes beyond just being a better leader or a better manager of a construction process.
00:19:45.256 --> 00:19:51.053
They become better human beings, and better human beings make better employees.
00:19:51.053 --> 00:19:57.922
I don't know why people don't get that, because early I would say but this guy's a better dad, he's a better husband, and they go.
00:19:57.922 --> 00:19:59.086
We don't give a crap.
00:19:59.086 --> 00:20:01.228
Who cares if he's a better husband.
00:20:03.683 --> 00:20:04.646
I work with this one guy.
00:20:04.646 --> 00:20:11.567
He's in Mexico, his name is Gabriel and he was typical alpha superintendent.
00:20:11.567 --> 00:20:15.934
50 years old ass kicker was asked to be removed from a project.
00:20:15.934 --> 00:20:17.425
His own team didn't want to work with him.
00:20:17.425 --> 00:20:22.452
So he worked on human connection, being a better team player, working on his empathy.
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:28.909
And he calls me about halfway through this process and he says I got a problem with my niece, can you help me?
00:20:28.909 --> 00:20:32.449
And I said I'm sure, especially if it has to do with your.
00:20:32.449 --> 00:20:33.632
I'm not a counselor or anything.
00:20:33.632 --> 00:20:42.114
He said well, she's moved in with us because she just got divorced and she lost her job and she has a pain in the ass and we really hate her.
00:20:42.114 --> 00:20:44.359
We're about to kick her out and she's telling us how to run our lives.
00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:48.021
And so I'm doing this on Skype, right, and I said, well.
00:20:48.021 --> 00:20:49.883
I said well, wow.
00:20:50.364 --> 00:20:57.146
So, as he's telling that, he's saying, well, she lost her job, she got a divorce, she can't afford her own place, his face does this.
00:20:57.146 --> 00:20:58.928
His face lights up and he goes.
00:20:58.928 --> 00:21:02.148
She feels bad about herself, doesn't she?
00:21:02.148 --> 00:21:04.911
What's that?
00:21:04.911 --> 00:21:05.790
That's empathy.
00:21:05.790 --> 00:21:07.211
That's working on.
00:21:07.211 --> 00:21:09.792
Yes, I said, well, what are you going to do?
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